Elizabeth Seton - Is the wife of Alexander a daughter of Seton?

And to answer about Isobel Stewart & Walter Haliburton of Dirleton - good grief. I could swear the original point from Douglas Hickling etc was that Isabel Stewart was twice widowed. But there’s a huge peerage mixup of Walter l and Walter ll:

The Scots Peerage shows 2 generations of Walters. Burkes Extinct Peerages 1883 shows just one Sir Walter, High Treasurer and 1st Lord, who married Isabel Stewart. The Scots Peerage reports that, whilst it "is generally stated that" the second Walter was created a Peer, "this is very doubtful, and it is more probable that it was his son [Walter l’s grandson] who was the first Peer".

So Isobel is given Walter ll’s children when she was his step mother. And Walter l and Walter ll die the same time in 1447 (not possible). And now I can’t find any Haliburton children for Isobel, yet, she definitely had issue.

“A dispensation was granted to Walter and Isabel on 21 December 1415, long after their marriage ( Vatican Reg., An. 22 Benedict xin.)” seems to be it on documentation. Doubt it was posthumous and there must have been children or why bother.

Argh.

The Haliburton who married a Chisholm (msg https://www.geni.com/discussions/251464?msg=1571610) was Walter Haliburton, 1st of Pitcur

Isobel Stewart’s step grandson.

Very interesting. I wonder how the phD guy developed such an opposing notion of the orderliness of their rule?

Can't help feeling sorry for women who didn't toe the patriarchal line at the time. Mariotta gets jailed for the rest of her life (it's difficult to believe that she could have created chaos in an entire kingdom by her actions. Neglect? Yes. But what could she have actively done by herself to destroy Ross?)
You may notice a certain subjective partiality by me for a woman whose personality description could easily have been one of an ambitious authoratitive male ruler -except then it would have been compliment.

As for little Euphemia who refuses to be forced into marriage, she gets forced into a convent as her prison until she dies :-/

I shall have to put aside some time tomorrow to read all about Isobel's story, if what you've posted above is the (very interesting) tip of the iceberg.

Bain was not complaining about Alexander’s skills as Earl, though, so not sure he’s contradicting our recent dissertation. Bain’s partisan but realistic sounding point was not that Mariota was unskilled; on the contrary, she must have been a great politician, to be able to go head to head with a smart King who had plenty spies on the ground. Bain was saying her grudge (that she didn’t have formal authority) turned her into a guerilla fighter, sniping at the kingdom, and that Alexander followed suit. Until he (romantically) subjected himself to the King, made amends, and got himself out of jail. But - the authority still wasn’t given over until the next King in 1437.

There may be a way to figure out the Halliburton’s better, but frankly, the Acts of the Isles repository is so good, I’m not sure there will be anything comparable. The answers will be in more current published scholarship, though.

Yup, if there s one.

I know there’s not a lot more to say, but I couldn’t resist this “it’s all the Stewart’s fault” quote.

To mention only one other of the twenty-one children of Robert II., his eldest daughter Margaret, who was married to John, Lord of the Isles, 1350, carried with her what seems to have been nothing s than a curse. To make way for her, the Lord of the Isles set aside his first wife, Amy MacRuari, with her children, and from that day the misfortunes of the great House of the Isles began, and the downfall of the whole race of Macdonald.

It was Margaret Stewart's son, Donald of the Isles, who married a sister of the Earl of Ross, and on that Earl's death claimed the Earldom. This was claimed also by his uncle, Robert, Duke of Albany, for his own younger son. To assert his claim Donald, in 1411, marched across Scotland and fought the bloody battle of Harlaw, where he was defeated by his cousin, Alexander Stewart, Earl of Mar, eldest natural son of the Wolf of Badenoch. It is true that in 1431 the tables were turned, when the same Earl of Mar was defeated by the Islesmen, under Donald Balloch, in the fierce battle of Inverlochy; but the victory brought down upon Alexander, the next Lord of the Isles, Margaret Stewart's grandson, condign punishment at the hands of his other cousin, King James I., and the misfortunes of the house went from less to more, till in 1493 John, “fourth and last” Lord of the Isles, died a forfeited and landless man in Paisley Abbey or Dundee.

From The Highland CLANS of Scotland: Their History and "Traditions. With an Introduction by A. M. MACKINTOSH By George Eyre-Todd. Vol. 2. (1923). Page 261-262.

https://electricscotland.com/webclans/highlandclansofs02eyreuoft.pdf

:-)

cursed Margaret :-/

Isn’t that hilarious? He was voting for the around the way wife Amy, obviously.

Now, I’m wondering if (lack of clan) partisanship is part of the reason for the obscurity of Alexander’s Elizabeth. His “concubine / handfast” partner names are preserved, more or less. And there seems to be prevailing mores to, hey, have as many wives as you can afford, for as long as it’s agreeable to both, kind of situation. The dissertation makes it clear that Alexander’s alliances with Island women was good politics. But I think Elizabeth was not local, Seton or Haliburton or whoever, or she would have had more than one brave cleric looking out for her interests.

John’s wife Elizabeth Livingston took her case to the King and won pensions from his lands. But her father was powerful in the King’s court.

So back to: what was in it for Alexander to choose this particular wife?

Same reason Isobel married a Haliburton? Aird.

So you’re bringing me around to a Haliburton marriage possibility, but I still don’t think that 1445 record was her. 1) I’ve only seen a “Dame” styling by widows 2) if she was signing as wife, she would have been noted as wife. All other records on the page are very clear on relationships, except that one. And, Scots records I’ve seen always name wife as wife, they’re really unambiguous that way.

In other words, I’d buy her more as Elizabeth Haliburton, daughter of Isobel Stewart, and Alexander allowing or even encouraging mother in law use of the countess of Ross title, particularly if he’s trying to discard his wife. Keeps mother in law in good odor with him.

And, if she’s mother in law, no need to spell out a more complicated relationship in a third party money transaction that doesn’t involve inheritance etc.

So her parents remain unknown - because she might be sister etc too.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dame#:~:text=1%20%3A%20a... 'the wife or daughter of a lord'

I don’t see that we’re very close to identifying parents for Elizabeth, wife of Alexander.

I think l know:

• Elizabeth (and its variations) was a popular name, but it wasn’t Gaelic
• she wasn’t a widow (no sign of divorce, step children, etc)
• if she had been born of the Isles or nearby, they’d be all over that (local pride)
• no sign of bringing property to Alexander
  • The Seton claim had some note that she she brought him Strathbogie but I didn’t see anything of the sort in ACI
• she didn’t have a powerful / proximate parent or sibling ensuring Alexander treated her right, unlike Elizabeth Livingston, daughter in law
• I am a bit enamored of a 1467 death date based on John’s charter, which includes a prayer for his mother Elizabeth’s soul. So a place to look might be among his acts.

And what about dowry (tocher). Would Alexander really have married without it? He was marrying for heirs / politics, not for a court ornament. Perhaps any dowry notes are lost.

Whatever docs you can find would be essential.

Yes - my point was that we don't have parents, not that we're close to finding them.

Dame doesn't mean widow.

For whatever it indicates about her position, the pope steps in at some stage to admonish Alexander in some versions of the story. That does suggest some clout.

Good point. Someone squealed.

“Lady is a courtesy title for the wife of a knight or baronet and daughters of nobles. A dame is an earned honor, the female equivalent of a knighthood.”

Does that apply to 1440s Scotland though?

I think the wife/daughter of a Lord thing applies here.