Elizabeth Seton - Is the wife of Alexander a daughter of Seton?

Just to throw something in there.

If Elizabeth (wife) really was a Haliburton, she very well could have been the daughter of Walter and … Isobel Stewart. TSP has only a son Walter ll by an unknown first wife before 1402. Marginally Elizabeth (wife) could have been from Walter ll but it seems tight chronology.

https://digital.nls.uk/scottish-history-society-publications/browse...

His [Donald%E2%80%99s] wife’s seal, attached to a document of August 1420, calls her ‘Mariot [or Marie] de Ros domina insularum’ without mention of her husband (No. 20; app. E); she survived him, and was styled ‘domina de Ilis senior’ in 1431 and 1435 … her death has been dated 1440 (C, 211) but it may have been earlier, as her son Alexander styled himself Comes Rossie by Jan. 1436/7.

My understanding is that Mariota won her suit for the Earldom, and immediately resigned it to Alexander.

We have no acts / documents by a Countess of Ross that I see, except Euphemia and Isobel.

The roles of women are interesting indeed. This is three women, Isobel, Euphemia, and Mariot, as the rightful and legal countesses of Ross. I am getting the impression wives didn’t use it as a courtesy title, and they couldn’t give it to their husbands so easily as all that.

Who was Count / Countess between 1415 & 1437?

http://www.thepeerage.com/p10799.htm#i107984

Eupheme Leslie, 8th Countess of Ross was the daughter of Alexander Leslie, 7th Earl of Ross and Lady Isabella Stewart.1 She died after 1424.1

She succeeded as the 8th Countess of Ross [S., c. 1225] on 8 May 1402.2 On 24 July 1411 her inheritance was a cause of the Battle of Harlaw.2 On 12 June 1415 she resigned earldom and became a nun.2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Ross

• 7th Earl Alexander Leslie (died 1402) m Isobel Stewart (m 2 Walter Haliburton)
• Euphemia II (died c. 1424) (resigned c. 1415)
• John Stewart, (died 1424) (1/2 brother of Isobel Stewart)
• Mariota (died c. 1429) (sister of Alexander Leslie, Earl of Ross) m. Donald, Lord of the Isles
• Alexander of Islay (died 1448)
• John of Islay (died c. 1498) (forfeited 1476)

Wikipedia has John Stewart, Earl of Buchan in the list, but in the article, it’s his brother Robert Stewart who was 9th Earl.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Ross

In 1415 Euphemia was persuaded to resign the earldom in favour of Robert and his sons. However, the Albany Stewarts would meet their downfall when King James I returned to Scotland in 1424. Robert was strongly suspected of having murdered James's brother David, and in revenge James had the entire family forfeited and executed (with the exception of James the Fat who escaped to Ireland). The earldom therefore passed to the Lords of the Isles, who continued to hold it until John forfeited it in the 1470s for trying to conquer Scotland with the help of Edward IV of England.

So maybe this wasn’t as much about “rightful heirs” as who was trying to kill the King. :)

Still begs the question: who was Earl of Ross between 1424 (Robert Stewart loses it) and 1437 (Mariota Leslie gains it).

Of course we need the Munros to answer this more correctly than Wikipedia.

https://www.ssns.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/05_Munro_Ross_19...

So correcting post https://www.geni.com/discussions/251464?msg=1571525

Earls of Ross

• 7th Earl, Alexander Leslie (died 1402) m Isobel Stewart (m 2 Walter Haliburton)
• 8th Earl, Euphemia II (died c. 1424) (resigned c. 1415)
• 9th Earl, John (not Robert) Stewart, (died 1424) (1/2 brother of Isobel Stewart)
• 10th Earl, Mariota (died c. 1440) (sister of Alexander Leslie, Earl of Ross) m. Donald, Lord of the Isles
• 11th Earl, Alexander of Islay (died 1449)
• 12th & last, John of Islay (died c. 1502) (forfeited 1476)

That's very useful, thankyou:

Here's my rough and ready notes to add (I've got the numbering slightly differently, but I think that's neither here nor there)

Earls of Ross

• Uilleam III, Mormaer of Ross
• 7th Countess Euphemia (d1394--8) (Uilleam's dau) x Walter Leslie Lord/Earl? of Ross because of Euphemia xx Alexander Stewart, Earl of Buchan'
• 7th [8th?] Earl, Alexander Leslie (died 1402) (Euphemia's son) m Isobel Stewart (m 2 Walter Haliburton)
• 8th Earl, Euphemia II (died c. 1424) (resigned c. 1415) (dau of Alexander)
• 9th Earl, John (not Robert) Stewart, (died 1424) (1/2 brother of Isobel Stewart)
• 10th Earl, Mariota (died c. 1440) (Euphemia's dau; sister of Alexander Leslie, Earl of Ross) m. Donald Macdonald, Lord of the Isles styled comitatus (husband of the Countess) of Rossiie in papal docs 1420-22
• 11th Earl, Alexander Macdonald of Islay (died 1449) (Mariota's son) officially recognised as Earl by the king in 1436/7
• 12th & last, John Macdonald of Islay (died c. 1502) (forfeited 1476) (Alexander's son& Mariota's grandson)

RE Just to throw something in there.If Elizabeth (wife) really was a Haliburton, she very well could have been the daughter of Walter and … Isobel Stewart. TSP has only a son Walter ll by an unknown first wife before 1402. Marginally Elizabeth (wife) could have been from Walter ll but it seems tight chronology.

Yes, I'd thought about that too

Yup. We should take out the c 1502 for John, Munros (I think) had an exact date range in early 1502 at the lodging house.

I didn’t go back to the PhD document for the intermediary period (1424 - 1437) whilst Mariota was pursuing her claim (again). Who was effectively running the Earldom, title or not? I had certainly gotten the impression that Alexander’s “takeover” was smooth “on the ground” if not always so with the King; and that the Isles were in good shape, so he could concentrate on good administration of the Ross territory.

Walter Haliburton ll supposedly married Marjory, daughter of Archibald the Grim Douglas. I was just puzzling over this. Sorry for the off topic.

You know what, should check dates on

9th Earl, John (not Robert) Stewart, (died 1424)

John of Buchan died gloriously in battle in 1424. Maybe Robert was his heir for Ross, quickly caught plotting treason, but he really was Earl for a minute?

It’s that a dozen years seems quite a long time without someone running the shop. So there must have been people doing so.

A backhanded way of wondering if Isabel Stewart, one time countess of Ross, retained authority in her widow hood.

RE Still begs the question: who was Earl of Ross between 1424 (John Stewart loses it) and 1437 (Mariota Leslie gains it).

My impression from that PhD narrative is that Mariotta and her son Alexander step into the power gap almost immediately as un/officially Earls, and Alexander is not a force anyone wants to take on.

I think the fact that Mariotta's husband Donald being titled comitatus of Rossie (ie husband of the Countess) in papal documents of 1420/1 make it very likely that she was styled as Countess at the time > perhaps making it obvious that she was challenging John Stewart's right to be Earl of Ross?

Question: How long does Isobel Stewart/Leslie/Haliburton live?

From the PhD - apropos the power manouevres in Aird with the Haliburtons

Marriage to a Haliburton made sense for Alexander MacDonald in gaining momentum in the affairs of the Aird. The portion of the Aird which had long been associated with the Aird family had been inherited by the Chisholms through marriage to Margaret Aird heiress in the mid-fourteenth century, but by the time of MacDonald lordship in Ross the Chisholm male line had in turn died out and upon the death of Alexander Chisholm, grandson of Margaret Aird, Walter Haliburton inherited the Erchless portion of the Aird through his marriage to Chisholm’s daughter. 119 Therefore Earl Alexander’s Haliburton marriage allowed the earl of Ross to pursue a policy of ever widening political overtures with the nobility of the Aird, who were of more local and immediate strategic value for MacDonald security in Ross than a marriage to the Setons at this time. 118 Chron. Ross, 2-3.

My impression from that PhD narrative is that Mariotta and her son Alexander step into the power gap almost immediately as un/officially Earls, and Alexander is not a force anyone wants to take on.

And, wasn’t Donald in it before his death c 1424 also? In other words … sure, King, sit on the claim, meanwhile we’ll just take care of business, and incidentally, protect your interests against those grabby Albany Stewart’s. Possible? But who was signing stuff?

perhaps making it obvious that she was challenging John Stewart's right to be Earl of Ross?

I don’t think this was a secret at all. :). But Buchan was off doing Glorious War Deeds, so how hard was he playing? It was his father who was the Grand Manipulator. (All my sympathies with Euphemia ll, obviously).

Question: How long does Isobel Stewart/Leslie/Haliburton live?

I wish I had a clue. So far, none.

Personally, I'm loving Mariotta - she's a power player of note :-)

So I think Donald (as Countess's husband) is signing Ross things, and then Mariotta and Alexander.

Yes, there’s only one known interaction with Seton, which seems curious in a time & place where kinship ties were all important.

One argument though against a Haliburton marriage (or, maybe not). According to the papal decree, Alexander moved out his wife and moved in his “concubine” by 1445. Wouldn’t her brother have been really, really annoyed at this?

Mariota is the bomb. Went to jail for her claim - but kept on trucking.

But Donald Macd dies at a very similar time to John Stewart - and it appears that Mariotta and Donald/Alexander are preferred by the people of Ross because John off galavanting was making a lousy job of running the place.

RE One argument though against a Haliburton marriage (or, maybe not). According to the papal decree, Alexander moved out his wife and moved in his “concubine” by 1445. Wouldn’t her brother have been really, really annoyed at this?

Good point - but , also, we don't know how Elizabeth Haliburton was related to Walter Haliburton

And that's probably covered everything we do / can know :-)

What fun. I feel like I want to know more about all their stories..

Have to go and pay bills now, before the electricity cuts out again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stewart,_Earl_of_Buchan

His father, Robert Stewart, Duke of Albany, was grandfather to Euphemia II, Countess of Ross and persuaded her to resign her rights to his son.Stewart appears as Earl of Ross for a time, until his right was challenged by Domhnall of Islay, Lord of the Isles, for his wife, who successfully became known as Mariota, or Mary Leslie, Countess of Ross.

—-

So maybe that 1420 challenge was never responded to, and the self declaration gave them the legal cover. Buchan was in France. I have the impression he was a warrior, not a war lord, not a politician. Because if he really was political, he would have kept himself alive protecting grabby brothers.

Looks to me like MacDonalds were excellent Counts (OK, maybe last John not so much) and Stewart’s really uninterested. It’s really interesting because from Fraser I had had an idea of unsophisticated, feudal Highlanders. But in Mariota Donald & Alexander, I see more modern governorship.

I don’t know how much of “History of Ross” you’ve skimmed. He’s a great stylist & quite opinionated. Here’s what he has to say about Mariota (and answers my question on “who was running the shop” - it was the King.)

https://archive.org/details/historyofancient00bain/page/83/mode/1up

The family compact made with Lady Euphemia of Ross, in 14 15, as a matter of course fell to pieces at once, but the king took similar steps towards preventing the Island Family becoming a menace to the throne, retaining for the next seventeen years the Earldom of Ross in his own hands; took personal oversight in its affairs, and even granted charters as Earl. Necessarily, this assumption of his patrimonial rights gave great offence to Alexander, but James, who had been diligently collecting information, had found that even in his Island dominions he failed to meet the exigencies of the situation. The king also ascertained that the subordinate chiefs in that quarter formed a combination that rendered lawful rule all but impossible. As will be seen, a drastic remedy for all and sundry was in due time adopted.

But Alexander's mother also formed a special factor in the embroglio, and one still more difficult to counteract. Old in intrigue, swollen with family pride, and violent in temper, she had withal a grievance of her own which gave all these traits abnormal vigour. The king had pointedly refused to acknowledge her as Countess of Ross, and she in revenge, aware that no other course would so annoy an order-loving king, put forth all her influence towards bringing Island affairs into a state of chaos. The king, who had excellent information, became cognisant of the fact, and took his measures accordingly. …

Fordun relates: — "The king caused to be arrested Alexander of the Isles and his mother, each of whom he invited singly to the Castle, and caused them to be placed in strict confinement apart." Scott says that Alexander was kept in confinement for a year, others that after a severe lecture he was set at liberty; but as a hostage for her son's good behaviour and other sufficient reasons Lady Margaret was for the greater part of her remaining days imprisoned in Inchcolm. ….

At the termination of his two years' imprisonment, Alexander secured in Parliament a free pardon, it being seen that he was in no way answerable for Donald Balloch's insurrection.

The assassination, in 1437, of James I. was productive of many changes, and among others, the Island Chief had restored to him all his patrimonial rights; and in that way, after a hiatus of twenty-seven years, the Province obtained at its head,

ALEXANDER, ELEVENTH EARL OF ROSS.

Reference was:

“History of the ancient province of Ross (The County Palatine of Scotland) from the earliest times to the present time.” by Bain, Robert. Publication date 1899. Page 84-85.

Bain has this to say about Robert Gordon, the early Sutherland historian, who was responsible for the story of nearly drowned Sutherland wife as daughter of Alexander:

https://archive.org/details/historyofancient00bain/page/82/mode/1up

Sir Robert Gordon has a story of those stormy times, the facts of which may be accepted as probable, but which, with respect to its dramatis personae, goes far to indicate the sifting through which much Highland history has to pass before it can be accepted. He tells us that Nicolas, Earl of Sutherland (there was no Earl of that name) having had a feud of long continuance with the Chief of the Strathnaver Mackays, and also with his son, Donald Mackay of Farr, proposed in 1395, with the view of having it adjusted, a meeting in the presence of his father-in-law, the Lord of the Isles, in his Castle of Dingwall. The proposal was agreed to and the parties met. But during the altercation which followed, the Earl slew both the Mackays with his own hand, the Clan being too weak to avenge the bloodrshedding. The matter, he goes on to say, was in some degree adjusted by Robert, Nicolas's successor, and Angus Mackay, eldest son of Donald, aforesaid.

This mixing and inventing of names and dates is after Sir Robert's usual manner. Donald, the Lord of the Isles referred to, it will be remem- bered, did not succeed in obtaining the Earldom of Ross, and did not even assume the title until 1411. His son-in-law was not Nicolas, but John, while the grandson of the murdered chief was that Angus Dubh Mackay who commanded at Blar-in-inich !