Margaret Macdonald - Sources?

Yes, you are, I think. “This John Earle of Sutherland married the daughter of the Lord of Isles, Erle of Rosse.”

There were only two people who were both Lord of the Isles and also Earl of Ross, Alexander and his son John. John MacDonald, 13th Earl of Ross, Last Lord of the Isles doesn’t even seem close to having a daughter Margaret. So Alexander is the only person I know of who could have actually had daughters other peerage reports such as Douglas’ list.

Self correcting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Islay,_Earl_of_Ross shows an illegitimate daughter Margaret Macdonald married Kenneth Mackenzie.

Wikipedia sources??

So, should we make the wife of John, Earl of Sutherland, a NN daughter of Alexander, do you think?

PS I'm about to experience 3hrs of loadshedding, if I go quiet :-/

RE Wikipedia's :Margaret Macdonald. She married Kenneth Mackenzie, 8th of Kintail, son of Alexander Mackenzie, 7th of Kintail and Anna Margaret Macdougall.

• > may be the reason for the use of the name Margaret for a supposed sister of his- but still no valid proof yet. (If you prefer that description to primary/close secondary sources :-))

Can I just say what a pleasure it is to read the Munros?

Now - how to translate that into tree placement …

Sharon, I don’t think they are (we don’t know the name). Names are fine. It’s “who’s the daddy.” :)

The Sutherland historian was not about to have his precious ancestor be an illegitimate girl of an illegitimate boy (I should say “hand fasted”) like Celestine was, so “of course” he’s going to obscurely name her “daughter of Lord of the Isles / Erle of Ross.” On the other hand, to think a man who loved women like Alexander did didn’t manage some girl children strains belief, too.

I’m thinking more on dates. John seems to have a firm birth date of 1434, so if he had sisters, you’d think close to.

I’m not seeing daughters for John at Acts of the lords of the Isles.

https://digital.nls.uk/scottish-history-society-publications/browse...

However, Burke’s 2003 has her, & claims legitimated.

http://www.thepeerage.com/p23157.htm#i231568

Margaret Macdonald was born illegitimately (but later legitimated.)1 She is the daughter of John Macdonald, 11th Earl of Ross.1 She and Kenneth Mackenzie, 8th of Kintail were divorced allegedly.1 She married Kenneth Mackenzie, 8th of Kintail, son of Alexander 'Ionriac' Mackenzie, 7th of Kintail and Anna Margaret Macdougall.1

—-

So, “perhaps Margaret” MacDonald is ruled out as daughter of John. She’s either Alexander’s (as in MacDonald chronicles & peerages) or Celestine’s (as in Fraser & Burke’s). If Alexander’s, it is by no means certain she was Elizabeth’s.

Hopefully we’re not totally lost. Finding a papal dispensation in 1986 is exciting, and shows that Finvola Celestine Macdonald of Lochalsh, could not have been the wife of John Sutherland.

Which leaves us with the daughter of Alexander Macdonald the Munros call “perhaps Margaret,” as the almost drowned 1st wife; and the TSP identification of “Fingole, daughter of William of Calder“ as the apparently divorced 2nd wife.

I think it might be best to merge Margaret MacDonald into 1st wife of John Sutherland as that would keep the children in place, but I’m open to other techniques.

Without more source clarity, I'd suggest creating a new NN placeholder with all this info attached to it, and disconnecting the other two - linked here if we need to find them - in case they existed as real people outside these ambiguous relationships - who we can link in with more certainty later.

Managers have had a Sutherland wife / mother for years, what we’ve learned is that Burke’s name theory is not possible, so what’s needed there is to change her name to “first wife,” not to disconnect her. In my opinion.

The Munros chart Alexander with daughters. (23)

You’re right, the evidence that 1st wife of John Sutherland was the daughter of Alexander is weak. The daughter and the wife / mother should be kept separate.

The Complete Peerage is clearer about how Sutherland could have been associated with the MacDonalds: “The Earl received a grant of the lands of Spinningdale and Pulrossie in 1467, which in 1464, had been granted and confirmed to Celestine, suggesting the lands may have been a marriage “tocher” (dowry) for his daughter.”

http://www.familysearch.org/library/books/idviewer/583084/556

So far there do not seem any spare daughters of Celestine to fit the bill, unless Finvola’s 1465 marriage resulted in divorce by 1467.

I’d still argue that if the Munro’s chart Alexander with a daughter perhaps called Margaret, and we have such a profile in place, and with many peerage & family chronicles reports calling her that, that disconnecting that profile doesn’t serve.

Sorry, here’s a better link to TCP (1953 article)

http://www.familysearch.org/library/books/idurl/1/583084

And the page is here

https://s3.amazonaws.com/photos.geni.com/p14/db/b7/55/cb/534448612ae15b08/be8a5d44-bd93-4869-83ca-dd3fa1843e2f_original.jpg