Margaret Macdonald - Sources?

Margaret MacDonald married John Sutherland, 8th Earl Sutherland, son of John Sutherland, 7th Earl Sutherland and Margaret Baillie. Margaret MacDonald died circa 1490 at Unes, Scotland; Murdered.

• https://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p1254.htm...
• The Scots Peerage, Vol. VIII, edited by Sir James Balfour Paul, p. 334. <Archive.Org> “Sir Robert Gordon says this Earl married a daughter of Alexander Macdonald, Lord of the Isles, though no proof is forthcoming. Sir Robert adds that this lady was nearly drowned while crossing the ferry at Unes, and was found in a state of weakness and slain by a robber. She must have been his first wife. His second wife was apparently Fingole (said to have been a daughter of William of Oalder, Thane of Cawdor), widow of John Monro of Fowlis,2 who died some time before April 1491”

John, 8th Earl of Sutherland - Burke’s describes the MacDonald 1st wife as 1st wife of John Sutherland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Sutherland,_8th_Earl_of_Sutherland

Fraser stated that there was considerable difficulty in identifying the marriages of John, 8th Earl of Sutherland, even though Gordon stated that he married firstly, a daughter of John of Islay, Earl of Ross and Lord of the Isles.[2][3] Fraser stated that as the earl received a grant for the lands of Spinningdale in 1467 which in 1464 had been granted to Celestine MacDonald, that it is not improbable that the earl had actually married a daughter of Celestine MacDonald. When the earl was summoned to Edinburgh in 1499, the record refers to a divorce between him and his wife who was named as "Fingole". Fraser stated that this Fingole has not been identified but that the wife of Celestine MacDonald had a similar name and therefore suggested a descent from that family. However, Fraser also states that later in 1509 to 1512 when the rents of the earldom of Sutherland were being administered by the Crown, a Catherine, Countess of Sutherland, is found drawing terce from the lands and that this is clear proof that she was the widow of John, Earl of Sutherland, but it has not been ascertained who she was or if she was identical with Fingole.[3] According to 19th-20th century historian Angus Mackay, the earl was, if not married to, at least hand-fasted with a daughter of the chief of the Clan Ross of Balnagown Castle.[4]

Dictionary of National Biography, 1885-1900/Macdonald, Alexander (d.1449)

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_National_Biography,_1885-1900/Macdonald,_Alexander_(d.1449)
By his wife Elizabeth, daughter of Alexander Seton, lord of Gordon and Huntly, he had a son John [q. v.] who succeeded him. He had also two other sons, Celestine, styled also Archibald, and its Gaelic equivalent Gillespie, lord of Lochalsh and Lochearne; and Hugh (Gaelic, Huistean), also called Austin, and Augustine, lord of Sleat. These two sons are usually supposed to have been children of his lawful wife, but as entries in the Exchequer Rolls clearly show that John was younger than they, the presumption is that they were sons merely by concubinage. Of several daughters, Margaret married John, twelfth earl of Sutherland, and Florence, Duncan MacIntosh, ninth of MacIntoch.

[Bower's Continuation of Fordun; Exchequer Rolls of Scotland; Gregory's Hist. of the Western Highlands; Mackenzie's Hist. of the Macdonalds.]

RE: https://www.geni.com/discussions/251427?msg=1570782 the first doesn't give the parents.

I've done a search of Balfour Paul and could not find her - perhaps you'd have better luck?

RE: https://www.geni.com/discussions/251427?msg=1570792
No Margaret, though.

1st wife of John Sutherland - also of the near drowning - is Alexander's granddaughter - and still not his daughter called Margaret :-/

RE https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_National_Biography,_18... shows no primary sources and has Margaret married to a John, twelfth earl of Sutherland. As the 12th Earl of Sutherland is an Alexander, and the 11th and 13th Earls - both called John (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Sutherland) do not marry a Margaret - this is a bit of a puzzle.

Still using wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Sutherland,_7th_Earl_of_Sutherland, the 7th Earl does marry a Margaret - but she's a "daughter or sister of Sir William Ballie of Lamington".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Sutherland,_8th_Earl_of_Sutherland - not the 8th earl either.

I don't know - I'm just not seeing the proof? Alex Moes

Daughters called Margaret & Florence come from DNB, who obviously got their Sutherland earls mixed up. It’s the 8th Earl identified in TSP as the husband.

There isn’t proof of marriage and there will never be.

“A family memoir of the Macdonalds of Keppoch,” ed. by C.R. Markham, with notes by C.E. Stuart, comte d’Albanie. By Angus Macdonald. (1885) Page 13. <GoogleBooks> “1st daughter, Margaret, married to John, Earl of Sutherland, and was mother of Elizabeth, heiress of that noble family.”

The peerage of Scotland: containing an historical and genealogical account of the nobility of that kingdom, ... collected from the public records, and ancient chartularies of this nation, ... Illustrated with copper-plates. By Robert Douglas, Esq;. Douglas, Robert, Sir, 1694-1770. Page 663.

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/ecco/004896980.0001.000/1:236?rgn=div1...

XI. JOHN, eleventh earl, who got a char∣ter from king James III.* of the lands of Pol∣rossie, and others, Johanni comiti Sutherlandiae, &c. anno 1467.

He married lady Margaret MacDonald, daughter of Alexander earl of Ross, and lord of the Isles,* by whom he had two sons, and one daughter.

1. John, his heir.

2. Alexander, who died unmarried.

His daughter, lady Elizabeth, afterwards countess of Sutherland, carried on the line of this family, as will be shown hereafter.

He died anno 1508, and was succeeded by his only surviving son, …

(Looks like the dynastic numberings for the Earls of Sutherland had been revised in peerage reports)

Here’s the account of almost drowned “daughter of Lord of the Isles” from Robert Gordon, Bart., historian for the Sutherlands, that Balfour Paul was so skeptical about. Gordon does not name her.

https://archive.org/details/genealogicalhist00gord/page/74/mode/1up...

Robert Gordon died 1656, so he’s closer to the events than anyone else yet cited. Here’s his DNB entry.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_National_Biography,_1885-1900/Gordon,_Robert_(1580-1656)

Here’s “Mackenzie's Hist. of the Macdonalds” as cited by DNB, who quoted the Lord of the Isles children exactly as given here.

“History of the Macdonalds and Lords of the Isles: With Genealogies of the ... “ By Alexander Mackenzie. (1881) Page 89. <GoogleBooks>

I’m having trouble finding 1st wife of John Sutherland except at http://thepeerage.com/p1107.htm#i11070

The Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Sutherland,_8th_Earl_of_Sutherland is certainly off when writing “daughter of” John MacDonald, 13th Earl of Ross, Last Lord of the Isles

Elizabeth, lady of the Isles Was disproved as Elizabeth Halliburton.

https://ancestorium.com/tng/getperson.php?personID=I037488&tree=1

The Munros were not alone in failing to discern the true identity of "Dame Elizabeth Haliburton, Countess of Ross," referred to in the note of a discharge cited above. Complete Peerage V. 11, p. 151, published in 1949, makes the same mistake.

Doug Hickling (November 2003)

——

This site, based on Doug Hickling (I think?) has Elizabeth as mother of John, Margaret and Flora.

This is also what Justin’s original entries had, if you look at revisions.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_National_Biography,_18... - but I cant see Margaret anywhere here?

This Finovola Macdonald has no sources. I suggest that we do not complicate things any more than they by merging her in.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_National_Biography,_18... Is for the Gordon’s. :)

Margaret MacDonald Now has a dozen references. Whether they’re believed is a different question. :).

1st wife of John Sutherland Is sourced and Is the same person as Finovola Macdonald (in my opinion). Is the Stewart marriage attached that makes you want them separate?

I figured out “John Stewart” and why “Finvola MacDonald” had been attached.

In an earlier GEDCOM world, Finvola was placed as a daughter of Elizabeth, lady of the Isles and Elizabeth Seton was thought to be the same person as Elizabeth Gordon who had a John Stewart son. In other words, Finvola and John were supposed 1/2 siblings. Of course, neither seems likely.

RE Daughters called Margaret & Florence come from DNB, who obviously got their Sutherland earls mixed up. It’s the 8th Earl identified in TSP as the husband.
There isn’t proof of marriage and there will never be.

• Sutherland marriages largely irrelevant here, though. Just looking for proof of Margaret as Alexander's daughter.

RE the drowning story

• And the drowning story offers no proof of Margaret as Alexander's daughter, either way.

RE: Here’s “Mackenzie's Hist. of the Macdonalds” as cited by DNB, who quoted the Lord of the Isles children exactly as given here.“History of the Macdonalds and Lords of the Isles: With Genealogies of the ... “ By Alexander Mackenzie. (1881) Page 89. <GoogleBooks>

• This is the first 'evidence' - but from 1881, and no primary - or any -sources offered.

[MY] CONCLUSION: In my opinion, insufficient source proof that Alexander had a daughter Margaret. Cawley obviously hasn't found any yet either: http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTTISH%20NOBILITY%20LATER.htm#Ale..., nor Balfour Paul, nor Wikipedia - which offers no sources for her,although listing her as his child.

I am not however, however going to remove her. Will leave that to you or Alex Moes, if you decides this too.

Will move Finovola and Elizabeth Seton's Discussions to their profiles.

I’m undecided. TSP does not list daughters, it’s a peerage report, not a primary source or a family study; and the “family history” books (not particularly good ones) do have daughters for him.

To be clear - the earliest evidence seen so far for a daughter of this Lord of the Isles is from before 1656, by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Robert_Gordon,_1st_Baronet

It wasn’t published until much later, and Balfour Paul (and others) are not thrilled by it. But it us early evidence.

but completely unsourced ones. My rule of thumb is remove without sources because we're doing Genealogy here.

I think you mean primary sources? (Charters, contracts, etc).

Well, for daughters in Scotland it’s always been difficult to find those.

RE: To be clear - the earliest evidence seen so far for a daughter of this Lord of the Isles is from before 1656, by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Robert_Gordon,_1st_Baronet

Gordon doesn't name her as a daughter of Alexander anywhere I can see. Am I missing something?