Consensus on using Maiden Names

P.S. Everyone is think with their computer and whatever other tech. they have instead of their brain. We all have one lets use it along with the technology! We neeed both.

No matter how many fields are added, it shouldn't affect gedcom exports. Only those fields that are called out for export will export.

I don't mind having an extra name field for men. If you don't want to use it, don't use it. I've got enough male relatives that have changed their birth names for reasons other than adoption that it's a help to me to have that information available.

Also, if you're hyphenating for adoption, how do you differentiate between people who were adopted and people who hyphenated by choice? For instance, I know couples who each retained their birth names after marriage but hyphenated their children's names. I'm not familiar with the genealogical standards for this.

Re: "Enter an individual’s birth name in the given name field, even if the person was known by another name all their life, and even if that person is identified on a death record by the more familiar name." - so, until we see the Birth Certificate, we have to leave this field blank. My mother did not discover till well into middle-age what name was down on her Birth Certificate, it was never used, and I am not going to enter it as her First Name (or Given Name). Nor am I going to use the Birth Certificate first name for the many other relatives who were not known by the name on their Birth Certificates. And everyone without a Birth Certificate (or Baptism record) -- Given name/First name is supposed to be blank??

Geni for a long time seemed like it wanted to be a cross between a Genealogy site and a sort-of Family Facebook site / on-line Family Reunion place. Do not know if it has totally dropped this second goal or not.

A person unfamiliar with genealogical conventions starting a family tree is going to enter their own name as they know it to be, their parent's name as they know it, etc. And folks searching for relatives will search by the "last name" they know the person by. When you have a situation with so many duplicates or whatever it is that creates the need for a 'Master Profile" - in such a "Master Profile", these conventions folks are discussing might well be a good idea.

Judi

The thing is -- you still haven't answered my question, and I don't think it's an unusual one for Americans (or indeed any place with immigration).

My grandmother's birth records are gone, period. Unless by some miracle they were moved archivally (doubtful), they were destroyed in World War ll.

Now she had a naturalized name, a maiden name, a married name and name at death.

If I understand "genealogical standards" correctly, I would be entering her in some strange combination of NN or [-?-] or ???.

This is my grandmother. I cannot do it. Why can't I use the names she was known by, her children knew her by, her grandchildren and her great grandchildren? It makes no sense to me.

What am I missing here?

Lois

I'm one of those curators tasked with resolving name discrepancies LOL.

What I do is use "period / language / country specific" conventions.

I have traced my Scots ancestry and in the Scottish middle ages / for nobility, they used their birth name all their life. So ... that's what the MP is ... also I have handy worked out and thought out standards to refer to.

For the United States, based on English Common Law, women adopted their husband's name at marriage. So ... that's what I use (maiden name and last name). For simplicity among the many time married I use "name at death" in the last time field.

The GEDCOM field export issue is a red herring to me. As Linda points out, off line programs accommodate geni fields as is just fine.

To me this is a "family research" site. I am all for professionalizing it but not at the expense of common sense for 90% of users.

to Judi from Judy If I read what you just posted correctly, you make a lot of sense! The only think I personally have problems wit, is the use of unk, only because I have in the past tried to live first or last, which ever the case may be, blank , but it wouldn't let me, so hence the unk.. Are you finding this Judi and Judy confusing. I keep flipping back to see if someone meant to put Y instead of I. Can't even say Judith because we are both Judith. We had two of us at work for awhile and when making request or reading line ups everyone always put Judy M. or Judy L. so we'd know who they were talking about. oh, well such is life. Judy

FYI for those who share the French-Canadian trees with me and insist on putting married names in the last name field:

SOURCE: http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library/article.aspx?article=6830

Naming Practices
A basic knowledge of naming practices in French Canada is essential for successful family history research.

Women retained their maiden names for their entire life, using their birth names in all official church and government documents. This means that it is just as easy to trace male and female lineages in French-Canadian family history research.

One challenge for the researcher is dealing with dit names. Many of our ancestors were called by a second surname, an alias, known as a dit name. These dit names were often derived from places of origin, personal attributes, or professions. You need to be aware of dit names when searching for your ancestors in French-Canada who may have used either or both surnames on any particular record. Here are some examples of dit names from my ancestry:
# André Marcil dit L’Espagnol may have had ancestry in Spain.
# Pierre Meunier dit Lapierre was a master stonecutter (maître tailleur de pierres).
# Daniel Perron dit Suire received his dit name from his mother, Jeanne Suire.

Two standard references described below, genealogy dictionaries written by René Jetté and Cyprien Tanguay, have lists of the most common dit names for each surname.

Another challenge with French-Canadian names is the amazing variety of spellings for each surname. While surname spellings were not fixed, most spellings of a particular surname were phonetically similar. I have seen my own surname spelled over forty different ways in historical documents, with such diverse spellings as Houymet, Louimet, Ouillemet, Ouimet, Wemet, and Wilmet. Even surnames with the most obvious spellings usually have a number of creative alternate spellings in French-Canadian documents. Learn how to pronounce your ancestors’ names so you can begin to anticipate the alternative spellings you might find in indexes and historical documents.

Names may change dramatically with border crossings. When our ancestors moved from Quebec to the United States, their names were often anglicized. Divining the original surname from an American variation is sometimes easy, sometimes a challenge. Here are some examples from my Vermont ancestry:
# Noël Leblanc became Newell White (surname was translated into English).
# Jean-Baptiste Perrin became John Bettis (original surname was lost).
# Amable Bissonnet became Marble Bissonette (name was replaced by a similar-sounding English word).

Also and reiterating what I stated previously as I keep finding people changing my shared French-Canadian and French ancestors:

Source: http://www.genealogie.umontreal.ca/en/nomsPrenoms.htm
As they naturally fell under the laws and customs of France of the Ancien Régime, inhabitants of the St. Lawrence Valley in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries all had a family name and a first name. Children inherited their father’s family name, and men transmitted this name to their children. Married women kept their family name at birth, at least in religious, administrative and legal documents.

Judith "Judi" Elaine (McKee) Burns

Sorry - I'll tag you this time.

1. It is unknown how to exactly spell my grandmother's birth surname as there are no written records to base it on.

a. There was the spoken Yiddish (not written anywhere as far as I know except informally, and in the event have yet to uncover those records if they do exist).

b. Several of us descendants have inquired, from varied sources, as to how the Cyrillic might have been written or pronounced ... and no one known can answer that question with any certainty as the area of the world passed from Austro-Hungarian Empire to Russia to Poland to Ukraine to destroyed entirely.

May I go ahead and enter her name in Geni as used in America? She was 8 years old when she emigrated and chances are good she never used the Cyrillic herself. She certainly forgot it altogether.

To Judy I didn't think you were typed wrong I was not sure sometime if they meant you or made with an I . No I know pleanty of Judy's with an I not a Y. Most are Judith and most are Judith Ann but some are just Judy or Jdi. In the 8th grade with had 14 Judy who graduated into high school.

Judi no one was ranting about last letter. I just wasn't sure on some occasion if they were talking to you or me. Most still say Judith to me but some because I sign things Judy use Judy so I was just a tad confused . Not all ways but sometimes as some of the response sounded like they might be aimed at me as well as you. I would check back and see what you had written to draw my own conclusion. Judy

No Judith - it's a public profile as she died 20 years ago. (Of course no one is interested but her grandchildren LOL).

And if I understand what people are saying on this discussion, the standards are *across the board.*

And I cannot put an unknown for her last name. It's crazy to me.

No judith I did not mean you or other rant and rave - i meant me - - some people take offense if not called exactly as they name is spelled - me i accept what any one calls me even it it is other

@Judith Loubris, regarding your reply to me about French people in your neighborhood...I presume people in your neighborhood are ALIVE. They can have whatever name they go by, married, changed, birth, same-gender partner's, single names, etc. People in 1600 did NOT usually take their husband's name. If they had an alternate name they went by, it was their dite name. On legal documents and church documents they went by their LEGAL and ONLY surname which was the one they were born with and the one that was handed down to them by their father; this is what has made it easy as pie to trace our French-Canadian ancestors. As for someone born after 1800, and in Michigan, Wisconsin, North or South Dakota, Minnesota, Ohio, Illinois, New York, Maine, Massachusetts, etc...married names make more sense as they did take on husband names after 1800.

Judi, oh , I stand corrected! So sorry. We all rant and rave once in awhile don't we/...
K. Anderson. I wasn't talking as far back as you. And I think I was agree with you on how the church ran things back then and probably now . Re read my post, you might see I was agree with you. Plus I was talking about my town not my neighborhood in general and all the people I grew up with and my immediate family.I can only go by the people I know for info , altho the gen. Teacher, of the course I went to a couple of years ago , did mention just what you just said. . My great grandmother was born in St Martins , N.B. Canada and my grandmother was born in Montreal and I can find very little out about them. I have written to several places up there with no luck. Got nice letter back but no luck!

Erica I have no problem with writing in unk as in fact it is unk at this time. And like I said I tried to leave it blank a few time and it wouldn't let me. Plus many gen. book do in fact write unk. kinda sad but true.Isn't this the main reason for doing gen. searching and hopefully finding the unknown thus making it known, at least to ourselves?

I write out the full term Unknown rather than abbreviate.

KR

Minor correction. It's more after 1600, not 1800. My English and American ancestresses seemed to have used their husband's name after marriage.

Interesting little fact from here:

"From the first known US instance of a woman keeping her birth name, Lucy Stone in 1855, there has been a general increase in the rate of women keeping their original name."

So she caused a commotion by refusing to be property! LOL.

http://lastname.com/american-last-names

Erica Oh, was that the problem?

Judith - you mean abbreviating Unknown to unk? To me it's not a big deal. Just looks a bit neater not to abbreviate anything in my opinion.

Doesn't matter to me. As friend use to say Whatever floats your boat. Try to remember that in the future.

@Erica, I'm referring to French-Canadians and French-Canadian-Americans. Are you referring to English/British-Americans?

So I am!

I thought that the law in Quebec was always to use the father's surnames? Did that change in the 1800s?

You're right, it was to use the father's name. But as English influence came in women began taking on their husband's surname. Many French-Canadians also moved south from Quebec where either the English and Irish settled or came to America (as we know it, some of the states were not US American states yet). Also, the law was to get rid of the dit/dite names and double first names because it was too confusing especially during census. One year you may have been Jean-Baptiste Pepin dit LaChance, the next year you were Jean Pepin, the next year Baptiste LaChance. LOL And then a following year John Pepin as they had to pick a name they were going to solely use on legal documents from that day forward.

Erica, I have told you before. When we don't know a persons name/surname at birth, we ususally use the earliest name we that person that we can find.

You write that she was 8 years old when she immigrated to US, than her name is usually her first name, (middle, names), and the last name of her father, and most of he time, when she is found in sources 8 years old with a last name, that is alos usually her last name at birth. Either I don't see your problem, or I don't iunderstand what your problem is. In any case, please explain:

What is the earliest time you have her complete name and is she married at that time

If that is her maiden name at immigration and you don't have any earlier name for her, then use that name for her last name.

When she later gets married, she will, in the records, have the same "Last name" as her husband. When is it necessary to write this name in her profile, as long as it already is in her husbands profile?

Ofcourse you may enter her name as it was when she immigrated to America in her "Last name" field, if that is the earliest name of her you know, but you should use her name as it was when she was 8 years old, and not as it was after her marriage.

Remi, do you ever work on merging duplicate profiles and reconciling tree conflicts here in Geni? Having the huband's last name in the wife's profile is extremely helpful for doing those things- perhaps unique to Geni.

David, no disrespect intended.

1) Most of our genealogy are involving the deceased. In regular ancestry most people here on Geni have 14 ancestors that are alive, and alot more deceased. Yeas we have siblings, cousins, second-cousins and so on, but still, most of the people on Geni are entering deceased peoples. So why shouldn't people adopt the most common way to write names of deceased people in Genealogy here on Geni. The only reasoon I would suggest is thst they do not know how names are written in genealogy. Than we (Geni) have to educate them.

2) Then a new user should have to read through a "paper" on how to write names in Geni and at the same the get the information about the "One World Tree" and that collaboration is a main goal. Should be fairly easy to implement. I have yet to encounter any person that doesn't now how to read an introduction to a program, which is usually smart to do. (I know that some people don'r read these, but sorry mac, that's their problem.) If it says in the introduction that Surname is usually the last name at birth ot the earliest yo can find, then problem is solved, or do you disagree?

3) Geni's focus has changed, David, you should know this. So why shouldn't how we write last names follow?

I am glad that you agree in principle. :-)

Quote David: Remi, do you ever work on merging duplicate profiles and reconciling tree conflicts here in Geni? Having the huband's last name in the wife's profile is extremely helpful for doing those things- perhaps unique to Geni."

I do a lot of work merging duplicates, but mostly in the trees I have some knowledge in. In that regard I also reconcile a lot of conflicts when it comes to names. I do not have any problems finding the right names for either him or her. It's really easy for me to find her by looking at her husbands last name, but that is what I allways have been doing, so it's common to me. It shouldn't be hard for you to learn it either, David.

Linda , I agree. That was one my points exactly. It can get very confusing!

Remi, I really don't think I can add anything to my previous comments on this subject. I'm going to keep asking Geni to fix this problem by giving us more appropriate fields, and step out of the debate about how we should be using the current [inadequate] fields.