Consensus on using Maiden Names

My mother's family also uses family surnames as middle names. Our middle names include: Hawley, Stowe, Lee, Browning all indicating ancestors.

And in the South, they use ancestor surnames, especially the wife's birth name, for first names as well.

Well that's what Anna did. One son had her maiden name and the other teo had family names.Don't know where the Ives came from for my grandmother and her nother 's middle name was Brown. There was one Jerulia( not spelling that correctly) Brown in either the Murch or Morton side but don't know how she's connected. My fahether's side Joseph seems to show up a lot. A lot of French background people seem to have Joseph as a middle or last name. Probably a good reason but since on the Loubris side I can't get back any further than gg grandparents on wither side I don't know if there was a reason for the name.

Bjorn & David: Tried again: http://geni.zendesk.com/entries/463413-name-fields

Just read it. Sounds sensible to me!

Why not chage maiden name to Birth name witch is correct. It is the only name anyone have when just born. And that should not confuse anyone. Maiden (girl) name is just been commen to use because before it was the woman that changed name when married. Birthname is not connected to any sex.

Agreed, Cecilie, as long as the Birth name is written in the Last name field and not in todays Maiden name field.

Data Entry Standards

Names

•. Six elements make up a name: given name, middle name, surname, title prefix, title suffix plus alternate names. Not all names have all elements. You will want to enter each element in the designated data field.
•. A birth name establishes the identity of an individual in a genealogy database. Enter the name given at birth (or baptism) in the language used at the time of the event (e.g., French, German, Latin, etc.) in the given name field.
•. Enter the surname in the language used at the time of the event in the surname field. Enter the Anglicized name in the alternate name field and explain details in the research notes field. Document the name in the source field.
•. Enter an individual’s birth name in the given name field, even if the person was known by another name all their life, and even if that person is identified on a death record by the more familiar name.
•. Enter maiden names for all females, even if previously married. If a wife’s maiden name is unknown, leave it blank until known. * . Enter all names in mixed-case letters with the indicated character spacing as shown on the birth record. The technique of “all caps” is no longer recommended; it could alter the name.
•. If a given name is unknown, leave the given name field blank. Do not enter “unknown” in the field. * . Capitalize the first letter of all names and capitalize all initials. Insert a period after the initial unless the birth or baptismal record does not use a period after the initial. Follow the initial and period (or the stand-alone initial) with a single space, not a double space. A computer notices differences in spacing.
•. Never use special characters in a name field, e.g., braces, brackets, question marks or equal signs.
•. Do not use “formerly” or “now” in given name fields or surname fields. Instead, enter alternate names, including alternate spellings or surname changes, in the alternate name field (AKA field).
•. Enter an explanation, if there is a story behind the alternate name, in the research notes field. Document the source of the alternate name in the source field.
•. Do not include military or professional titles in the given name field; these are earned titles, not part of a birth name.
•. Enter titles in the title suffix field or title prefix field. Explain titles in the research notes field and document titles in the source field.
•. Enter religious names in the alternate name field and enter the individual’s birth name in the given name field. Explain this information in the research notes field.
•. Enter birth right titles, e.g., Prince Charles, in the given name field. Document the name in the source field.

I agree with everything in Judi's note- provided that Geni gives us new, dedicated fields for each unique item. I disagree with proclaiming the current Last Name field for surname at birth. The reason, of course, is that this would be asking people to use fields for purposes other than what the Geni software developers intended, and how most Geni users have already been using them.

Conventions are great, but not if you're trying force fit them into a software structure that isn't a good fit.

If anyone is wondering what I'm talking about, please re-read all of my previous comments in this thread.

Well it's really very simple dealing in the past time periods that we are, hundreds and thousands of years ago., either their were no last names for either sex or men had last name they were born until the day they died , unless they changed it for whatever reason and women weather anyone likes it or not had maid name or birth names if that makes you happy and then if ever married had a married name or their husband's name, whatever you want to call it. That's just how it was. it was that way up until a few years ago. I got married 1969 and took his name. I got divorced 1973 and kept his name because I had a son and it wasn't consider proper to dump the kid's father's name . unless you got married again . That was then . This is now and there are all kinds of combinations. I use a double last name. other people have other variations. Don't you think it will look ridiculous if say Tom (Jones) Jones goes up there. However Mary (Smith) Jones makes sense. Judy

Ps what do we do with the ones so far back they don't have a last name.

Leave them blank OR, if you have a first or last name put in (i.e.) Elizabeth Unknown or Unknown McWhirter....

Obviously someone needs to research...sometimes a possibility is found in middle names of children or tree matches that hint at a possibility that someone else has found....you can then contact that manager to find out their source and decide what to do....

Judi...perhaps I need my eyes looked at...I do not see a prefix field at all....(but would love to)

David, how do you know what Geni software developers intended? What do you know that the rest of us don't?

And what Geni users have already been using for "Last name", can easily be changed, over time.

If you're right, and Geni intended the "Last name" field to be other than the lasts names genealogists use, then Geni has made a terrible mistake. I do not think the software developers have made this mistake, but I think a lot of users on Geni need a course in how to enter names in a genealogical database. And I wish the "Maiden name" field gone, it's only making a mess and us genealogists usually never use a name field called "Maiden name" since a persons maiden name is written in the "Last name" field.

Genis software is pretty good as long as people do not use the "Maiden name" field. I would really like this field gone, because it's making a mess. A person i supposed to be written with his/her last name at birth in his/her "Last name" field.. That is how we do it, and that is how it should be done, because doing it that way will make it easier to find ancestors. If you are looking for descendants, please search for the fathers surname, because the mothers surname should be written with her name at birth.

David, why is this so hard for you to understand, and why do you resist this way of writing surnames? You should know that this is the way names are written in a genalogical database, and I cannot understand why you think Geni is any different from a regular genealogical database that I, you or anyone else have at home.

Hi Remi,
I think that people coming from different cultures have a very very different view of the maiden name. I believe that you are not only influenced by your genealogical training but by your language and culture.

Some of us, born in the English speaking world in the years between 1800 and 2000 at least, have a different view of the maiden name.

Let's take me as an example - I took my husband's name legally when we married in 1973. It is the name of my children and of a family that is dear to me after 37 years of association. As for my father's name, well it's the name I was know by until I was 23 years old, but that was 37 years ago, and feels like ancient history. I am Hatte R. Blejer. That's me. I'll die with that name and be buried with it. Rubenstein is my maiden name, the name of my childhood.

On several occioned tried to leave blank. Won't let you but unk has worked and doing ----- works , Might not be the best idea but it does work.

Hatte , That is true for me too Judith a. Mccarthy except I think I will do what my father did and put my name on my gravestone before I die and have it my way Judith A. Loubris Mc Carthy but because I am legally Mc Carthy, it has to be on there, like it or not. Unless I legally change but why bother? Judy

Prefix is exactly what I have been talking about for ages and you've all been poo pooing me. Mr Mrs Miss , the English version. Madame, mademoiselle Miser

Sorry the screem jumped on me . Let me finish, that was the French version or whatever version you want. Plus Dr. Sir, the list goes on and on. I've been saying this all along. Judy

Well, on hindsight, to be fair maybe not all of you. I know Fay you haven't been poo pooing me.

Prefix field requested here:

"Title" field prefix for "Sir," "Colonel," etc.
http://help.geni.com/entries/432146-prefix-field

Everyone interested, go vote "thumbs up."

This is the new Help desk platform: a link from "help" at the footer of every Geni page. You need to LOGIN in the upper right hand corner (it's automatic - you just need to push the LOGIN button).

Hi Hatte.
It's the same way where I live, too. My mother took my fathers last name when they got married back in th 60's, she later took back her maiden name as a middle name, but that was for practicle reasons. Pedersen is the 6th most commen surname in Norway. Her in Norway it's been customary in the last 130 years that the women takes their husbands surname when theyu got married. This custom has changed somewhat in the later years, though, and know we do what we want. Before 1880 it was not customary that the women changed their surname in Norway.

But this has really nothing to do with how we write names in a genelogical database. We use surnames at birth to make our family research back in time easier. It's easier to find the parents of Ann Normann when Normann is her maiden name than finding the parents of after Ann got married to John Smith and her name is written as Ann Smith. My mother is in my genealogical databases written with her surname Honningdalnes, that is the name she was born with and used the first 21 years of her life. She has used Pedersen for 46 years now, but that surname is in a genealogical database only used as her husbands surname. If i want to write that my mother has used the name Pedersen for 46 years, I open my "Alternate names tab", adds a new field, calls it "Married name" and writes "Ingrid Pedersen", the timeframe this name was/is used, any comment I have and the source for the name. And that is how it is done in a genealogical database.

We must remember that the use of maiden names in real life and the use of maiden names in a genealogical database is two different things and we must know the differences and how and where they shall be used, both in real life and in genealogy.

The prefix field is a good idea.

I care about two things: (1) searching and matching is facilitated and (2) user errors are minimized.

For a couple hundred million who live in the United States and probably others in English speaking countries, having maiden name and last name is the most practical. Believe me, we are forever having to revert names that Geni users have changed because they want to give a 13th century woman a "married" name. I would not care if maiden name were re-named "name at birth".

My qualms about having a prefix box is that it will just make things more messy. I can see people using it for all kinds of things: Mr., Mrs., spinster, twin, and for notes: "died young", "immigrant", or an alternate given name, etc. and then you would have duplicates of what some people put in the suffix box: "Rev.", "Deacon", "Capt.", etc. And would it show up as "displayed" as the suffix box does? I can't tell you how many times I've seen a maiden name in the middle name box or "Mrs." in the given name box and the husband's 1st name in the middle name box -- and how this leads to the wife and husband being merged as the same person.

Hatte: Glad you are so close to your in-laws etc and can totally understand your desire to be buried with your married name....

From a genealogical standpoint I would look for your headstone either with your last husbands name on it, your LONGEST husbands name or your parents name.....wish the search for your parents ancestry were that easy...and there were that few possibiities...

Marian...that's why I proposed drop-downs with only standardized options (an additional one for...suggestions..to add to the regular ones).
And NO....titles etc would not need to be entered for DISPLAY...that could be kept at first name,middle, last....

Perhaps, instead of the 'about me',occupation, Salem Witch Trials, twin, etc fields being BELOW the person's profile they could ne moved so they are BESIDE the profile...like book pages.

I see no need for Mr, Mrs, Miss, etc...those are givens by male/female and whether a marraige occured..anymore than infant boy when the male box is chosen...

There are max 3 days in a month, 12 months, 50 US States...there should only be a fixed number of Prefixes and Sufixes...with a suggestion box slot that goes to Geni for consideration (in the event the original list omits something and THEY agree to add it).

Excuse me...31 days in month max....

Judith...you asked about what to do prior to maiden names...as far as I know, they dealt with them in Europe etc by using von, ap, of (etc) as in:
Ludwig von Beethoven
Eleanor of Aquitaine....etc
OR
dotter/son as in Willemsdotter meaning daughter of
Williamson meaning son of

OR
Smith.......his job was as a Smith
Weaver....his job was as a weaver etc

VERY simplified but goes to origin of names...you can learn more about the history of names...at upper right of profiles any profile you can click on the Surname history...

Even if you don't know the family you can check it out for any name on Geni....

And why can't you pick the name to be buried under??? I do not believe that there is any law prohibiting you from WHERE you are buried and what name you wish to be known as for posterity; as long as it was held by you at some time....you may check this out from a legal standpoint..as far as I know..the only restriction is one of space available.

I have NO intention of being buried with either of my ex's or using either name on my stone...

We DO get gloomy about name at death, tho...don't we?

I intend on my 1st and middle only...and buried with my parents....

Has anyone thought to LOOK at their tree when they know there were multiple marraiges and see that the 1st husband is furthest from the woman's name, with the most current husband closest to her....also, the order of husbands IS available on 'relationship page'....

So...in regard to keeping birth/maiden name...the man closest to her (the last man standing) is most likely the name under which she will be found in obits....

Keep her given name...like he keeps his....and just look at the tree...you do not need a long list of names, hyphens, a separate maiden name field from given name at birth...you do not need to give a littany of names to find info; in fact, if you miss a husband etc you only reduce your chances of learning anything...

Her heritage is her line upward, her legacy is the children .

And not knowing a womans surname is NOT an end all since tree matches of data for the ENTIRE profile often leads to the unknown information..

However when doing genealogy, one needs both names since graves and social security record married name at death and birth certificate and childhood census record maiden name. Marriage licenses online at least are variable.

Remi,

I'll assume for the moment that you meant no disrespect in your remarks about my apparent inability to understand what seems so intuitively obvious to yourself. I do understand your point of view perfectly. But I continue to disagree with your proposed use of the current Last Name and Maiden Name fields for a couple of very fundamental reasons:

1) Pragmatism. Fixation on a solution that focuses only on the deceased (i.e., the use of genealogical conventions) is being short-sighted in the context of Geni. I am trying to point out the fact that the current field names make no distinction between living or deceased status, and why your proposals are unlikely to be adopted by MOST average people who are living, breathing Geni users and not serious genealogists. See #2 below.

2) I am a programmer. I know in general how software application developers think, and I can recognize design choices as being usually indicative of their intentions. For example, try using a previously unused e-mail address to sign up for a brand new Geni account as if you were a new user. One of the first things the screen asks you for is your "Last Name". It does NOT ask for Maiden Name or "surname at birth". This is because the new user sign-up (which every Geni user must pass through at least once) was clearly NOT designed with only professional genealogists in mind. It was designed to suit the lowest common denominator- namely, unsophisticated users. I have yet to encounter any person, regardless of culture or IQ, who had any problem filling out this Last Name field on this initial screen. A survey of claimed profiles in Geni reveals that virtually everyone uses this field for their most recent last name, and not their name at birth.

3) The product development philosophy was revealed very early and clearly in the Geni Forum back in 2007. If you dig through those posts, you will see very clearly that, much to the consternation of the genealogist community, Geni's focus in the beginning was to make building your family tree as simple and fun as possible for the average, unsophisticated [and apparently at that time primarily American] user. To that demographic, the definition of "Last Name" is quite implicit.

My point remains that I cannot be an advocate for a re-definition of existing field usage that is unlikely to be voluntarily adopted by a majority of users, and for which there is no mechanism for enforcement.

As a programmer, I know it is possible to develop a simple solution that will solve the problem from both perspectives. I think you are a little too willing to settle for a voluntary solution that relies solely on cooperation to work. Good luck with that. Meanwhile, I am holding out for a technical [software] solution that provides all the right fields for the right purposes.

All of that being said, I do respect your opinion and agree with you that dedicated fields are needed for last name [surname] at birth. Just not the current Last Name field.

Sally , I still say birth name is fine for women , since they often change their names when married, althou not always. So Maiden/birth ,either or other, is fine in that case but woman who neither marry or marry and don't change their names and most men only have one last name, so even tho it's their birth name ,it's also there only last name , so all they need is last name, which is self explanatory! It's only common sense. I think that's what we need here. COMMON SENSE and less technical. Start thinking like human being, that is what we are, isn't it? and not like machines. Judy