Consensus on using Maiden Names

Great Erica - I have 'followed' and sent a 'join project' request.

I know that the discussion is about "naming" and "names" and possible re doing of geni to accomodate... While we are at possible changes in geni... Could geni also provide in the date columns a "bef" "bet" and "aft"? i.e died bef. 1187 for example, or "bet"ween 1887 and 1900

Yes, Sally, I've often thought that too - Won't you add it to the discussion about suggestions to Geni programmers at:

http://www.geni.com/projects/discussions/Coalition-for-the-Standard...

Sally, I think that's why they have "c" or "circa" or whatever it is they use. I, too, like the "bef", "aft", "bet" myself.

Another thing is, none of this "prettying up" is going to make one smidge of difference if the lines aren't correct, and I'm still seeing mistakes - don't ask me where specifically, I've stopped keeping track after not receiving replies from some self-proclaimed experts here. Geni has become "just fun" for me, since I'm not the one who found all the links back to royalty in my own record searching, which is rather scant in most of my lines (at least what I have access to).

Judy, I agree with you, I'd be pretty peeved if my "maiden" name wasn't used as MY SURNAME!!! The only reason I changed my name when I married was because my husband's was easier to pronounce - or so I thought. How can anyone screw up BERNATH - 2 SYLLABLES!!! I've been called everything BUT Bernath (pron. "bur-NATH - is that so difficult??). People call me on the phone, and if they don't pronounce the name correctly, I tell them there's no one here by that name and hang up. They can either pronounce it correctly, or send me a letter (believe me, the name is spelled correctly every time).
Another thing you mentioned is also used in Hungarian, the ending on the surname to denote a married woman. Often in old records, I find a female ancestor listed, say, as Jozsef Horvathné - the né means "Mrs.", and she's often a widow, but it is/was used for wives with living husbands as well. More properly, it would be Horvath Jozsefné, since the Hungarians also put the surname first. My friends still use that form when speaking amongst themselves, although in school their kids use first name, last name, the way Americans do, since it's more easily understood. I often ask Asian people which they're using, since most of us are unfamiliar with the names. We have a Chinese sister in law, and we use first name, last name in writing it (genealogy and elsewhere) since that's the way she does it here in the US.

Elizabeth Ann, I totally agree with you. I have a family full of common first AND last names - the only way I can keep them straight is to use the maiden names of my female ancestors; that way, when I see their surnames matching their husbands', I know they've married cousins. And, in this country at least, the Dutch used the family names of the women as their legal names early on, here in NY anyway, as found in every record I've ever seen, going back to the early-mid 1600s. I'm sure they did the same thing in Holland. Even my English ancestors were written up that way in DRC records, but using Dutch spellings. We'd have been better off under Dutch rule; women retained their identities and could own property, unlike under the English, where women became non-entities and any property they brought to the marriage was automatically forfeit to the husband. UGH!

J.A...just so you know my father was Dr H C Baldwin, D.D.S (that stands for doctor of dental surgery)....however, the DR , just as Sir (as you pointed out) is a deignator of standing.....Sir Elton John, Sir Walter Raleigh etc as is Dr.......Esq is always placed at the end to denote job (attorney) or D.D.S (see above)...

J.A. ...you also have another GREAT point...that computer programmers tend to make things useable for computer programmers....worked in banking too many years, with too many computer system change-overs to not know that there is a difference between what THEY say is user-friendly and the actual everyday 'USERS' (the lowly people who actually enter data and have to work with it) find useable....

But I DO think that Geni is trying....on this side of the ocean there seems to be a problem but it is with whether or not to use maiden names....the ORDER of names oversees is a different thing altogether and, I believe that, for the most part there shoud be agreement that the names should read as intended and not Americanized....(perhaps with some idiot (and I include myself) hints to HOW the name is set up....perhaps a header or something that explains the name)....

Just my thoughts...thought a road-map when you enter a country that does things differently would be of help....and a pop-up that tells you that the proper order is...........(dependent on the country's common use).

Fay

@ Sharon, I've downloaded my Gedcom multiple times only to find it includes only about one-tenth the information I originally uploaded. Pffft.

Hmm, Janice - this I found too, unfortunately.

The grand dames of SA genealogy say to me that's my own fault for not adding data to my private tree, instead of to the Geni big tree - but the Geni big tree is so much easier, and I want other people to be able to critique it. (Who said that history or truth is just what your peers will let you get away with saying?)

So I'm invested in finding ways to improve the quality and protect the existence of data on the Main Profiles on the Geni tree. (So that even if I get cut off from seeing them when my collaborators split trees or misp-merge - at least I know it's still there to get back to.)

Maybe I'm naive or idealistic, but I think these 'faiths' are statisticaly as likely to be rewarded as cynicism - and the latter stops you doing anything at all, so there really is no choice ;->

Personally I find it easier to enter data in Geni and then download to my desktop for safety etc.

I didn't know that about Dutch ancestry in New York women. I wonder what the law was and how the "retain birth name after marriage" custom was dealt with under the English Common Law.

I've lived most of my life in "old" cities -- New York, Boston, and summered on Cape Cod, so have been to many historic cemeteries.

Universally to my recollection and as verified by images people upload to Geni, the wife is buried under her husband's name.

Sharon, at least I have my own private genealogy on my computer and back-ups, but like you wanted to participate in the Big Tree - so much more to see there. I've been copying the info on the Master Profiles (and even before the MPs) by copying and pasting into a word document. The problem is transferring that info into my own tree lol.

I wanted to share it with all my cousins as well - we'll get it straightened out sooner or later. I do become a bit distraught when my (correct) profiles are deleted - although that hasn't happened recently.

I must think the same way you do, since I'm still here!

Erica, I don't know about the early cemeteries since most of them were moved from Manhattan pretty early on. I always used the Dutch Reformed Church records.

Once England took over in the mid-1660s, everyone followed English law, where women were no more than chattel, unfortunately. All women thereafter were beholden to husbands/fathers (although in the Dutch church records, I think they still used the family name of the women).

My Dutch married out relatively early, but naming conventions still would have changed shortly, as soon as the English claimed the territory. The same went for the English land records; the wife was mentioned only by first name.

I wish I'd paid more attention to my mother and aunts when I was young (teens, early 20s) and visiting New England. I'd wander through the cemeteries, but never thought to look for ancestors - although most of mine were in NY by the mid 1600s.

An interesting thing about some of the Quakers, even those buried in the churchyards of other denominations, only the initials and years of birth and death are used. There are quite a few private cemeteries on Long Island where we've seen this.

So ... it looks like "English custom" took it over around 1660? That makes sense to me.

I was just looking at some tombstone photos from Hingham, MA in 1690s or so. One listed her father -- he was quite well known and a war hero. The other was in her husband's name.

Chattel, as you mention. :)

Fay I think Geni's trying too. Eventually all the kicks will be worked out and then they'll be new ones to iron out! Such is life! Judy

Fay I think Geni's trying too. Eventually all the kicks will be worked out and then they'll be new ones to iron out! Such is life! Judy

Erica, I think it was 1664 that the Dutch lost control of New Netherlands (Hudson River Valley, extending into parts of Connecticut and into New Jersey, bits of PA, MD and DE, and Kings and at least part of Queens on Long Island). Then the English ousted the Dutch; the Dutch regained control briefly, then the English took over totally (1664). It was the western part of CT the Dutch controlled. So most of New England was under English law already.
There are quite a few original stone Dutch dwellings from New York (what New Amsterdam became after the Dutch were defeated) up to Kingston and even further up, maybe even beyond Albany and Troy. I think there are some south into New Jersey as well.
As a note, the Hudson River was called the North River, and the Delaware River the South River. Somewhere I have an account of the Dutch sailing down into the Chesapeake Bay. My ancestor was captain of a ship sailing for the Dutch from New Amsterdam, and as the story goes, also a privateer.

Janice that sound very interesting!!!!!! What a wonderful historuy you must have.

There was an article on TV this AM about a couple who bought a house in New York which turned out to have been built when the Dutch were in New York. Pictures found in walls, a cemetery on the property and wooden pegs in the walls...with much research into the history of the family it was authenticated that a family named Riker owned the house...that land grants showed that they were granted 150 acres that were in part in Brooklyn (I think) as well as Riker's Island.....they were the 3rd owners (Only) of the house..which had been abandoned and which they restored, and after them, it is to be donated to the state as a historical site....believe the show was "The Most" (I will listen to anything that Mike Rowe is involved with)....
Seems to tie in with what YOU are saying Janice.. Perhaps it is available in transcript? OH...did I say that the Rikers were Dutch!
.....
Back to maiden names for a sec.....look at obits in the paper...While a woman's will use the married name, they ALL say daughter of i.e John Smith and Mary (Albins) Smith.....so maiden comes right before married name and IS integral to identitfying who you are talking about...

That's it.

We should use all possible fields and, to be more transparent, define as the displayed name both, probably the maiden name in parentheses.

Referring to current news, please read about Elton John's newly born adopted baby boy, who is going to carry Elton's and his male spouse's last names... I also know about a few men who adopted their wife's name at marriage. All these different versions are best sorted out with maximal information available in all different views.

Fay that sounds very interesting .Sorry I missed it. I'll see if I can pull it up on the web. Never heard of a show called The most. Have heard of If Walls Could Talk ,tho. A former neighbor of mine was many years ago featured on it. Turned the TV on and surprise suprise there was Julie and family. On subject of Maiden names. Right on.They are very important. Back ti the Dutch I think people tend to forget that the Dutch played a very important part in American history. Both New York and Pa. were settled by the Dutch. it was ineresting time in history. The arctecture they brough with them is interesting too. Let us not forget that the Pilgrams had lived in Holland, as it was called then, before departing on the Speedwell, meeting up in South Hampton with other Englishmen and then joining the Mayflowere out of Plymouth,Eng. O course the Speedwell took on water and had to turn back but finally made it to Mass the next year.

Fay I forgot to say I agree it is very important from whence you come both father and mother's side. One should never loose ones ID! Judy

Judy, thanks! It's very interesting to me! All the kids in the family loved it when I told them they had a GGGGGGGGGGGrandfather who was a pirate! LOL
I think we all must have very interesting family histories!

Fay, I'm not familiar with that show, but I'll try to find mention of it online. Sounds very interesting! There's an old Dutch house in Brooklyn, too - pics here: http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=Pieter%20Claesen%20Wyckoff...

The Dutch houses up here in the Hudson Valley are kept as museums I think, and more on the western side of the river in Kingston and New Paltz. Mostly up here it's now known for the "Palatines", the Germans who settled here in the 18th century.

And right on with the 'maiden' names - I always look for distant relatives that way!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Most_(TV_series)

A regular show on the History Channel..The show that I was talking about was on this past week.....The whole series is very interesting....he narrates, this is NOT "Dirtiest Jobs" .

Have a mild day....will be almost 50 day today...definately NOT typical.

Back to system upgrades...I'll stay clear of 'maiden names' for a sec....but would be GREAT if SOME consideration of DATE was taken into account with tree matches.....I've found 1900's pretending to be matches for 1400's....when that should be an automatic disqualifier....has anyone else encountered this when they get the flags for matches??

Really frustrating 'cause sometimes they, at first, seem to be the best match...until you look at the profile and, even if the manager did not put in dates for 8 generations (if you calculate 25 between...tho you shouldn't HAVE to do that) .....and then have to delete it from the ranks because it couldn't, even IF you were sloppy, link the 2 together...

Another thing frustrating is that a lot of the time the potential match is GREAT info and probably correct in all ways BUT does not match the ranking profile that you are required to link TO....hate to leave a VERY sparce and vague profile left standing when so many GOOD files just are not a match.....

and what is with the profiles that ONLY have contact manager or request to edit...don't have the 'view tree' at all....

Would REALLY like the date or date position the profile is IN to be part of the upgrade for programming consideration...

Fay: 1st I, I did look it up and found out it was on one of the history channels but I didn't know until you told me who the narrator is. I remember him from that other show. Now he appears to be going commercials. gotta make a living one way or the other. Anyway I am going to see if I can find that program on the Dutch in New York.

Second I have found miss matched dates and even names when they want me to merge. Just won't do it. Judy

Mike Rowe is still doing "Dirty Jobs" but also Ford commercials, the voice on "Deadliest Catch" and other commercials....dirty money, but somene has to make it...

I don't think THEY (meaning real people) have anything to do with the tree matches...I THINK that Geni looks at certain fields i.e.name and TRIES to match them....do NOT think the process incorporates DATES, just names...that's why you see a "tree match" of 1990 to 1359 (because of NAMES only)...if the system used dates as well, more than half of the "tree matches" would not show at all........at least that is MY reckoning.

That's why I hope when they ENHANCE the program it includes date peramiters...

Back to the program I saw...I would imagine that the History channel would have the programs archived....

Fay, he's all over the place!
Back to dates and other problems in Geni. I wish they'd fix the date section, I've mentioned this before. so one can put in about or before because often that's what ref. have. Plus there's the problem of , example, so and so born or died or married Jan. 1675/1676. We should be able to put that in that way since again that' s how ref. sometimes put it. So that's how it should be noted. A year can make a big difference and some tomes they have a large gape! We can not pick and choise. Have to do it correctly. So much to do and so little time! Judy

Fay, the tree matches I get are usually not even close to the names of my family - sometimes I wonder what the criteria is that's being used. Say I have an ancestor named John Francis Weeks, and the tree match from Geni will be something like Francis Albert Johnson! And from different centuries! I reject almost every one!

Private I don't get anything like that in tree matches, but I do get wrong matches.

A person can be named John Smith with a father named David Smith and a mother named Susan Brown and a wife named Jane Doe. Well, I'll get a John Smith with a father named David Smith a mother named Susan Johnson and a wife named Roberta Gordon. LOL

Hello Eero, Elton's baby boy is a great example of differences Geni is going to have to be at the forefront of finding data input and display solutions to that are not accounted for by present day localised genealogical customs. (I wonder if John is Elton's stage name?)

K. R. Anderson I too have had those kinds of matches. Those were frustrating enough, but when those weird "non" matches started showing up I just shook my head in disbelief!

Sharon, Elton John's real name is Reginald Kenneth Dwight.