John I "Lackaland" of England (1166-1216)

There are also matronymics by the way.

Grant,

I never knew that about the O' in Irish names. (Well, OK, some of the other info you posted too, but particularly the O'). Thank you so much.

Hatte,

Do you have examples of matronymics?

Another interesting pattern for surnames is some Scandinavian (?? probably not the right term but the right region) where someone's name ends in "-dottir," which works the same way as Fitz-does in Anglo-Norman names.

Check out the Wikipedia article on matronymics.

The Spanish and Portuguese also use both the father and the mother's surnames in a "double apellido". How they do it varies from area to area.

Icelandic has some matronymics.

My cousin's mother-in-law came from Iceland, and they still use the -dottir there. I think it's fascinating! We have a neighbor whose surname is A'Brial, and I've been wondering for some time if it's derived from the Welsh 'ap'. She didn't know when I asked her (married name, and she's widowed).

Glad the discussion's going well!

"-ez" in Espanol is indeed another patronymic; "-dottir" and "-verch" as well as "-bint" in Arabic are ways for daughters to indicate their descent.

Matronymics are fascinating. Hatte's right about the Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matronymic
(with particular interest in the reference below)
http://www.jstor.org/pss/594132

Examples in Europe are slightly rare, but the article gives a few good examples. Simply, when one's mother is the more-important parent, children like to claim descent from her. In Arabic, for example, a speaker might refer to the figure know simply as "Jesus/Iesus/Yeshua" as "Isa ibn Maryam," to indicate "Jesus, son of Mary." Likewise for Muhammed's grandsons, e.g. "Hasan ibn Fatimah." In China, in fact, there's some indication that the "Xing" variety of family names were derived from matronymics, such as with the character for "surname" include the radical for "woman," per

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_surname
(page 5 of the article below for "Xing" surnames)
http://lucian.uchicago.edu/blogs/earlychina/files/2008/07/ec25_pull...

according to this new book I just picked up it said Along with numerous other bad habits,John( Lackland) also went for sexual blackmail. He made a habit of seducing the wives, sisters,and daughters of his barons and the demanding hush money to keep the affairs quiet. The families of the victims had no choice but to pay up: if they refused their family's dignity was at stack.
John's queen Isabella of Angouleme, was o'course resentful. She took several lovers only to have John have killed and draped their bodies across her bed. I found this state along side a picture of him inA Dark History The Kings and Queens of England 1066 to the present day. Judy
John Lackland was the most reviled and detested monarch England ever had--the complete villain.

Well, I am sorry to say I am directly descended from him, 18th great grandfather. Nasty psychopath that he obviously was. I would have sided with Robin Hood against him in spite of our relationship.

@ Judith, is there something in the book that's clarifies the Issue (not his children) of Richard Fitzroy's dates and relationships?'

Thanks
:-)

Maria, "-dottir" means "daugther" only. It has nothing to do with being born in wedlock or not.

One oddity in Iceland is that at least in some periods, a child whose father was unknown was named after his mother. So if you had "Hans Evasson", you would know that his father was unknown, same for "Eva Evadottir".

Margaret, I'm descended from him too. Funny one of the few specific things that stuck in my memory from high school was the Magna Carta and King John, and I thought 'good good good!' But I didn't remember the part about his not having any intentions of honoring it.
I was ALWAYS for Robin Hood - he was one of our tv heroes, as we were growing up in the 1950s!

Speaking of Robin Hood, you may be related to him. That is, you may be related to Robert de Vere, the man usually considered the basis of the Robin Hood legendl
http://fabpedigree.com/s048/f375548.htm
You can find many references to him on line, I just included 1.
I think there are several profile for him on the tree Here's 1:
Robert de Vere, 3rd Earl of Oxford, Surety of the Magna Carta
Is there a legends project?

Dear Judith....
Curious that this tale has only emerged now after 800 years.
It is possible that it was invented to make John Lackland even more vioious.

However, It could also be true.

Certainly King John was a wicked, spiteful man with little to soften the fierce
horrid way that he lived.

From what I read about matronymics, in several cultures the child would take the mother's name only if the child was born out of wedlock.

In the viking lines you will find instances where people got their -dotter/-son or last name after their mother if their mother was better known or from a "better family".

This is by the way not just a tradition in the Viking lines but you find it up to nowadays.

Thank you for the links, Judith. I've seen the name and mention of Robin Hood, but didn't read it at length yet.

Name origins, meanings, etc., have always been a subject of interest to me - along with word roots (Greek, Latin, etc.). My sister and I used to play a game of "connect the dots" to word roots - don't know how to explain it, we made it up - each without knowledge of the other doing it. That's what we get for reading dictionaries I guess, lol.

Bjorn,

In researching and speculating on my European Jewish side, I learned that if the wife's family was richer / more powerful / lacking in sons, a new son in law would take on her family name, often as a hyphenate for a generation or two ... and then dropping the original paternal name altogether.

I'm sure Hatte knows and can explain much more than I can. But it explained a DNA study result that was puzzling to me: 11 lines of descent from a worldwide database of only 6,000 names.

The Discovery Channel had something on Robin Hood about a year ago.
It named several men who could have been the original Robin Hood, but pointed out that the name was more likely a nickname. I'll see if they have it on-line or not.

Tammy,

Thanks for cheering me up from being descended from "Lackaland" (did a typo creep in there?) because ...

Robert de Vere is your 23rd great grandfather!

Isn't it fun to be descended from mortal enemies of each other?

Robin hood, History Channel

http://www.history.com/topics/robin-hood/videos#who-was-robin-hood

Robert Hode?

Erica, I don't know how many times, when I was first working on my tree, i found great whatever grandfathers who were mortal enemies, only to become in-laws a couple generations latter. I'm glad the various branches of my family aren't like the Hatfields and McCoys.

Marv,

Nice little link, thank you.

"While most contemporary scholars have failed to turn up solid clues, medieval chroniclers took for granted that a historical Robin Hood lived and breathed during the 12th or 13th century. The details of their accounts vary widely, however, placing him in conflicting regions and eras. Not until John Major’s “History of Greater Britain” (1521), for example, is he depicted as a follower of King Richard, one of his defining characteristics in modern times ..."

But we have to do a new discussion for "Richard the Lion Hearted." :) :)

Margaret so am I . I am decented from John Lackland and William Longspree his half brother. I like William a lot better. CAN'T PICK YOUR RELATIVES. jUDY

Margaret so am I . I am decented from John Lackland and William Longspree his half brother. I like William a lot better. CAN'T PICK YOUR RELATIVES. jUDY

Margaret so am I . I am decented from John Lackland and William Longspree his half brother. I like William a lot better. CAN'T PICK YOUR RELATIVES. jUDY

Yes, this was a fairly common occurrence that husbands took their wives names among Eastern European Jewish families. From what I understand, it was often due to there not being any sons in the wife's family. However Jewish sons often changed their surnames -- which were new anyway -- to avoid being conscripted since an only son was not conscripted. My great grandfather took his wife's surname, we're not sure why. My great great great grandfather's brother-in-law changed his surname from Bernstein to Zirilstein and one of his sons changed his name to Stein. It was common to have siblings with various surnames.

Others know far more than me, but remember that surnames were a new and imposed phenomenon.

Erica Howton@erica

They have some good movies, but there's an ad 2 or 3 minutes of video, another ad 2 or 3 minutes of video...... watch a 30 minute video and there's another 20 minutes of ads. But at least it's free

@ Tammy - Woops, made a mistake - thank you for the links Tammy!

Robert De Vere also turns out to be my 23rd. great grandfather. I love history!

Ofir , I don't have an awful lot on Richard Fitz Roy. I have three children as I mentioned before. There may have been more but they were the only ones listed in this ref. Lora was the one I am most interested in and the only one they followed. She was Lora also known as Lorette ,de Dover.Also Lorette de Chilham/ She married Sir William Marmion,a knight, son and heir of Robert Marmion of Tanfield, They were married 7 June 1248. No other dates were given. However, I will check other ref. to see if I can turn anything up for you. Judy