John I "Lackaland" of England (1166-1216)

as far as I can recall from my research; there were 2 partners from the de Warenne family

There are two Richard FitzRoy's that have MP. Two different mothers.
Richard fitzRoy, Baron of Chilham
Unknown Profile
Were there two or is one if them incorrect?

that's is a bit of a mystery since several sources say different things and it's looks like there was another son called Richard.

I'm not surprised that there would be two Richard's, but there should only be one Richard FitzRoy.

I think that the possible answer could be that Richard that died in 1246
was the father of Richard that died in 1270, that is based on some sources.
of course all sources can be questionable but It does make sense to me that in those days it was uncommon to live over 80 years.

What do you think?

Ya, in the info I have they don't give Richard Fitz Roy's wife's first name but they do give her mother's name., as Isabel de Warenne. Also they said his uncle was William de Waren. 6th Earl of Waren and Surry 9 died 27 May ,1240) who is named in the Magna Charta as an advisor to King John. Judy

I think I'm getting annoyed with this part of the tree :-)

I've been concentrating on Henry II and John Lackland. They both had so many wives and kids. I've merged to death. You have to keep going back and fourth. Henry II, then his wives, then Henry II, then his wives, etc. Then, move to some kids like John Lackland. Then his wives, then him, his wives, etc... Everytime you do that, it cleans up more and brings the outer edges closer in. So, then you go back to Henry II again, then his wives, then him. Is this getting old yet? Do that for 5 days.

welcome to the club!!!
:-)

Can I just chip in with some general knowledge which may help here (I haven't really been following this thread so forgive me if it's misleading or off track)
fitzRoy means child of the King
so if the king had two sons called Richard by different mothers they could and would both be called Richard fitzRoy.

that's true, terry. it also sometimes gets the "roy" cut off and becomes just Fitz.

PS if you think Henry II had a lot of partners and children then you haven't taken a look at Henry I

Actually a friend of mine who's mother came from Scotland told me Fitz means Illegitimate. If you notice a lot of children by mistress are called Fitz Roy or Walter or Alan ete. Fitz Henry. Illegitimate child of so and so ! Judy

Well, they all were very busy men! When did they have time to run the country! Judy

I had no idea. Well, that clears up a lot of the confusion. Thanks. It's good to learn at least one thing per day :)

Brendan, sorry to be so late - had to get some sleep. I think those Richards are the same person. If Richard FitzRoy's mother was Isabella de Angoulême he would have been legitimate. I copied and pasted the info from the medieval families/lands in an earlier message. Both are married to Rohese (Rose), and I *think* one of the entries has her as being of Chilham & Dover, and that his title came via his wife. Other than that it's anyone's guess (to me, anyway). So many different dates for people all over the place, when they're supposed to be the same person (and often turn out to be, too!). I do remember seeing a second Richard in the list of children by mistresses though - wasn't sure if it was just a repeat. That second one said sources hadn't been found yet corroborating that particular son.

Judy, I remember from French and history classes (way to long ago to say when) that Fitz was a corruption of "fils" - son in French, and that the Fitz- name in Ireland denoted Norman Irish as opposed to Gaelic Irish.

Wanted to get this written before my computer locks up completely...
Janice

This is really interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitz

Janice, both Richard FitzRoy's have different (specific) dates of birth, so I'm hesitant to just merge them. I'll do a search by birth date to see if I can figure out where they came from.

Interesting link, thank you Brendan.

I also read in the medieval records, the son of Richard FitzRoy died around the same time he did. Two different mistresses most definitely could have had sons with the same name. But no clue here as to a source for another Richard. I think I'd avoid a merge too. Maybe children's names could give you a place to start?? I can do some checking there, but not until later tonight.

The only one of John Lackland's children ,so far, that I am interested in,mainly because he is connected to me, is Richard Fitz Roy, however the following info is what I have on some of his other children. Do with it whatever you want. Geoffrey Fitz Roy , led an expedition into Poitou in 1205 . He died the same year,,
John Fitz Roy,supported the custodians of the see of Lincoln and was made clerk.
Henry Fitz Roy , a knight,was a student at the Peior of Kenilworth in 1207.
Osbert Gifford, a knight died 1248.
Eudes ( or Ives) Fitz Roy went on a crusade in 240 . He died in 1241/1242.
Batholomew Fitz Roy was a clerk and member of the order of Friars Preachers.
Maud Fitz Roy was elected Abbess of Barking on Aug. 5, 1247. She died in 1252,( note a daughter of King henry 2nd also named Maud Fitz Roy, was also appointed Abbess of Barking by her father in 1175. Still living in 1198.
Isabel Fitz Roy married Richard Fitz Ives
Philip Fitz Roy ---no info.
Oliver Fitz Roy went to Damietta,Egypt in 1218 . He never returned.
All this info I attained from Angevin Kings.
Judy

Janice Fitz could be French., since William the Conq. and his family were originally French and even Robert the Bruces family originally came from France. The Scotts and English could have used it differently then the French or my friend could have had it all wrong. Just telling you what she told me. Never took a language. I wasn't going to college, so they wouldn't let me take a languish. Judy

P S I can not go back and talk to her about Ftiz as she died a number of years ago. Judy

Janice, just looked Fitz up. According to Wikipedia you and I are both correct. Fitz in French is Fiz/Filz and does refer ,Angle/Nomans usage, to son of so and so. However, the English/British Royal Family, with a history of no last names ,often used Fitz as a way of implying illegitimacy. Nice to know my friend was not mistaken. Judy

NIce to know Judy. I'm laughing since I was educated in Catholic school, so I kinda doubt we'd have learned about it being used for illegitimacy. They didn't even want us to know about sex LOL.

I did it again. 12:40am. Going to bed. The tree is getting to be pretty good in places. I combined the two Richard FitzRoy's. One had good dates and the other had a good mother. There are still too many "wives" and children. Any advice or merges would be welcome. Anyone wants to join the project, let me know.

Judith, what I've discovered is that while "Fitz___" in general was the Norman (French) way of saying "son of", the use of FitzRoy meaning "son of the king" was a way to give a surname to an illegitimate child of the English kings that acknowledged the royal relationship. (So there could be any number of FitzRoy's depending upon how many mistresses a king had!)

Outside the royal family, Fitz___ was used in the days before surnames among the Anglo Normans just as a way to indicate a person's family lineage--like Johnson or Willson, except that the name changed every generation. So if my grandfather was Gerald, my father would be Robert FizGerald but I would be FitzRobert.

Hope that helps!

Pam is right, and Brendan Molloy provides a useful link to Wikipedia.

"Fitz" is an example of a patronymic.

Patronymics (a refresher course, not to be patronizing!) are names, besides one's given name, that refer to one's father. They came into use in myriad cultures, often predating surnames. Recall the end of the first line of the Iliad:

Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος
Peleiadeo Akhileos
Peleus's [son] Achilleus

Note the use of the genitive construction, "Peleus's [son]," where "son" is left implied. The same construction was used in Attic Greek and its descendants, whereas Western Europe other forms, sometimes making "son" explicit. The Norman "Fitz" is explicit: "Fitz" derives from the French "fils," which in turn comes from the Latin "filius," which is literally "son."

If a man were the son of David in any of the following cultures, he might receive a patronymic:

(spellings in "David" may vary)
Hebrew: ben David
Arabic: bin David [or, ibn David]
Greek: Davidou
Russian: Davidovich
other Slavic: Davidovic [&c similarly]
Scandanavian: Davidsson [or, Davidson]
Welsh Gaelic: ap David
Irish & Scottish Gaelic: MacDavid [or, McDavid]
Norman: FitzDavid
Patronymics proved convenient for may centuries, and some places, such as Iceland, still use them today. People need multiple names to disambiguate themselves from others with the same given name (unless they are famous, such as "Madonna" or "Cher" or "Oprah") and referring to one's generation-plus-one ancestor is a valid way. They can evolve into a surname, which then refers to a generation-plus-many (usually patrilineal) ancestor, though surnames can also derive from the location, attributes, profession, or other qualities of an ancestor. All work. It would be more convenient for genealogists if everyone used all of the above!

Great information!

Is O' in Irish (like O'Molloy) another one for the list?

Great question! Originally, O'Molloy would have been the grandson of Molloy.

"O" (with or without an acute accent and/or apostrophe; also transcribed "Ua" without an apostrophe but with a space) meant "grandson of" a person.

By the time that surnames were assigned, "O" (grandson) seems to have allowed more liberty, just referring to a patrilineal ancestor, but "Mac" was quite literal, as one sees in Irish king lists.

The Wikipedia article (thirteen references) has more specifics.

Many thanks to all you for the lessons! So interesting! How about another: ap, and my personal favorite verch/ferch (female)!
Kitty

Oh. Sorry; double checking, and I see "ap" is there.
Thanks to Grant for the extra chuckle on the word play!
Kitty

It is my understanding that ez or es at the end of a Hispanic name is another patronymic.