John I "Lackaland" of England (1166-1216)

Reg,

Is the book "Britain's Royal Families" by Alison Weir - this one?

http://www.amazon.com/Britains-Royal-Families-Complete-Genealogy/dp...

Thanks
Erica

Erica

the book is "Britain's Royal Families" by Alison Weir -
and is available in my local bookshop.

Thanks, Reg. I may get it sometime. It looks pretty good - but you know genealogy, always an argument. :) :)

Reg,

I hope you don't mind I found our common ancestor:

Kenelm Throckmorton, of Little Easton

He appears to be missing a mother to his children. Care to find her?

Erica

Kenelm Throckmorton is your ancestor not mine.
It is his sister Elizabeth who is my ancestor.

Reg, I have that book, and am surprised it is redily available now. I had to special order mine a couple of years ago from England because it was out of print. It is a terrific book well sourced

Ah good point. Same family I presume? The one in the Gunpowder Plot of 1605? Didn't you all just have Guy Fawkes Day?

Just as an indication, earlier this evening I saw one profile as "MP" for John Lackland, with Richard FitzRoy as his next in line (and showing up as my 'X' GGF). There was an arrow to refresh and now it's Alice de Lusignan, Countess of Surrey, who shows up as his daughter. Totally wrong, not even the proper generation. I'm thinking the reason I have so much trouble in making merges (that is in the time it takes) is that I actually OPEN THE PROFILES! This one is totally wrong, yet there it is as the Master Profile. John I "Lackland", King of England
It might even have changed by this time, but probably not; more that likely will stay this way for a few days.
Another problem with the idea of Master Profiles is as Knut mentioned. There are so many of us, some with multiple lines from one person, yet we don't see our own lines, not even one of them, for direct ancestry - therefore winding up with an XX GGF for instance as your 14th cousin 12 times removed's wife's brother's great grandfather' daughter's husband! Frustrating to say the least. Just sayin'.

Janice,
This part of the tree is such an unbelievable mess that I have spent hours every day merging hundreds and hundreds of profiles. Seriously.

With a Master Profile, Geni will always take the information on the profile as the correct information. It doesn't affect relationships.

Thank you for pointing out an incorrect relationship. Could you list the url to the profiles and tell me where they should go? I have been up until 1am every morning fixing these profiles. Hopefully you'll see that it's a little cleaner. I know that bad relationships are frustrating, but it's equally frustrating when so much time is put into a tree and nobody cares about the good stuff, just the mistakes that are being worked on and fixed.

some thing BIG has to change with geni... The well researched part of the big tree should just be a given as roots.... no one should be able to change the main relationships.... the profiles should have history and maps. You should be able to attach to it with a disputed connection that only changes it in your tree or a regular connection.
they should have different language versions of the tree
who is going to fund this??
the big answer is the travel industry

Brendan, sorry for not starting off on a positive note. You're right, there has been great improvement in this line (and many others as well), and for that many thanks to you and to all who spend precious hours every day trying to straighten out all these lines. I've noticed over the past few months how much the direct lines from King to King has been cleared up. Earlier, in I think almost all of the profiles, the line to John of Gaunt went from Henry III directly to J of G, completely by-passing the Edwards. Still can't click links to go backward, but that's one of the "things" with Geni I guess, and whatever was worked on last is where the link goes? If that makes any sense lol.

The profile to John Lackland I posted above still stands as is. I believe Alice de Lusignan, Countess of Surrey, is the daughter of Isabella de Angoulême and her second husband Hugh de Lusignan. I have to go back to medieval records and read it again ~ should have copied it, sorry. The link to Alice's profile is: Alix de Lusignan

In reading the info in Overview for Alice, I see it comes from wikipedia; I don't know what sources were used there. But further down, some also comes from the peerage. As others have said, I'm not too comfortable with that and would rather use the medieval records, which I'll go find now. Be back with the info..

Hi Janice
You said it all for all of us.

King John Lackland is certainly a sample of all the
incongrueties that jump unto the tree.

Ethel

The area around her is a total mess. I'm working on it now.

The mistakes come from the profiles that get merged in. The profiles have to be merged in in order to fix the mistakes. Please bear with me.

If either of you want to join the project to clean these up, I can add you.

Hi all,
This part of the tree is especially difficult to keep "clean" because so many people are interested in it! Brendan is working his tail off trying to keep up. Janice & Ethel, you sound really knowledgable about John & this area-- we could really use your expertise!!! It's always a big benefit to have people who are familiar with the tree to help with merges & fixing stuff.
We'd LOVE to have you on the http://www.geni.com/projects/Plantagenets project!!!

Janice , according to, Angevin Kings, Richard Fitz Roy, otherwise known as Richard de Warenne, was the illegitimate son of King John Lackland and the daugher of Hamelin Plantegenet de Warenne,Earl of Surry. Richard was also known as Richard de Chilham. This can also be found in Douglas Richardson's Plantagenet Ancestry, Hope thi is helpful. Judy

Janice , according to, Angevin Kings, Richard Fitz Roy, otherwise known as Richard de Warenne, was the illegitimate son of King John Lackland and the daugher of Hamelin Plantegenet de Warenne,Earl of Surry. Richard was also known as Richard de Chilham. This can also be found in Douglas Richardson's Plantagenet Ancestry, Hope thi is helpful. Judy

Janice , according to, Angevin Kings, Richard Fitz Roy, otherwise known as Richard de Warenne, was the illegitimate son of King John Lackland and the daugher of Hamelin Plantegenet de Warenne,Earl of Surry. Richard was also known as Richard de Chilham. This can also be found in Douglas Richardson's Plantagenet Ancestry, Hope thi is helpful. Judy

P>S> Richard Fitz Roy married Rose of Dover ( Douvres) . Their children were Richard de Dover,Isabel de Dover, and lora ( Lorette) de Dover ( de Chilham) Also obtained from ref. listed above. Judy

I have cleaned up Alix de Lusignan If anything else is wrong around her, please let me know.

I can look at Richard Fitz Roy next. Could you link to a profile that I can start with?

Hi Ethel, thanks.

It just takes one incorrect merge to set the ball in motion I think. I stopped making most merges a while ago since I see so many incongruities.

Hi Heather, thanks. I don't now how much help I could be since I have other obligations - don't know how often I could really jump in there to clean things up. But I'd be glad to do research for anyone who needs it. Would really love to get involved to a greater degree, but time constraints set a limit as to how long I can be on Geni at any given period.

Judith, thanks so much. That was the line that was originally there last night before I refreshed the page. It followed from Richard through his daughter to Thomas Berkeley. Will have to look for a copy of Richardson's Plantagenet Ancestry; your info is very helpful, thanks!

Brendan, here's a link (more info there) and a copy and paste re Richard FitzRoy:
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLAND,%20Kings%201066-1603.htm#_T...
King John had one illegitimate son by Mistress (1):

6. RICHARD FitzJohn or Fitzroy (-[1245/46]). The Chronicle of Robert of Gloucester names "Sir Richard fiz le rei…Ion" and "the erles daughter of Wareine" his mother[524]. King John granted "terram…Roes de Dover uxorem suam…castro illo de Chilleha" to "Ric filio nostro" by order dated 11 Jul 1214[525]. "William Briwere" was ordered to deliver to "Richard the king´s son all the lands which fell to Rose his wife hereditarily"[526]. He was a captain in King John's army during the baronial revolt. He fought the invasion of Louis de France in 1217[527]. Lord of Chilham, Kent, de iure uxoris. Henry III King of England granted exemptions to "Ricardo filio Regis" in respect of "castrum suum de Chileham" dated 21 Jun 1217[528]. Bracton notes a claim, dated 1227, by "Ricardus filius Reg et Roysia uxor eius" against "Robertum filium Walteri" for land "in Lesnes" of which "Roysia de Douera avia ipsius Roysie" was seised[529]. Henry III King of England granted "to Richard de Dovor his cousin…the custody of the lands which belonged to Geoffrey de Costentyn in Ireland" by charter dated 11 Jun 1244[530]. Matthew of Paris records the deaths of "Ricardi filii Rogeri [maybe error for "Regii"] de Chilham, Ricardi de Dover filii eius" among those who died in 1245[531]. m (before 11 Jul 1214) as her first husband, ROHESE de Dover, daughter and heiress of FULBERT de Dover of Chilham, Kent & his wife Isabel Briwere ([1204/05]-[1264/65]). King John granted "terram…Roes de Dover uxorem suam…castro illo de Chilleha" to "Ric filio nostro" by order dated 11 Jul 1214[532]. Bracton records a claim, dated 1230, by "Matillis de Lucy, Ricardus filius Reginaldi [error for "Regis", probably incorrectly extended to Reginaldi from Regi?] et Roysa uxor eius" against "Robertum Yellestede" concerning "terre…in Neutona", which records the claimants´ ancestry "Galfrido…filio et heredi suo…et de predicto Galfrido…Herberto…filio et heredi suo et de predicto Herberto Matillidi et Royse sororibus" and "de predicta Roysa…Foberto filio suo et de predicto Foberto isti Royse…filie et heredi suo"[533]. She married secondly (after 14 Jul 1250) William de Wilton. The Pipe Rolls record in 1258 that "Willelmus de Wilton" married "Roesiam de Douor que fuit uxor Ricardi de Chileham"[534]. A writ following the death of "Richard de Dovor and Rose his wife" names "Richard son of Richard de Dovor, aged 21 on the eve of the Purification" as heir[535]. Richard & his wife had three children:

a) RICHARD of Chilham (-after 2 Dec 1247). Matthew of Paris records the deaths of "Ricardi filii Rogeri de Chilham, Ricardi de Dover filii eius" among those who died in 1245[536]. Lord of Chilham. m (before 2 Dec 1247) as her third husband, MATILDA Ctss of Angus, widow firstly of JOHN Comyn Earl of Angus, secondly of GILBERT de Umfreville Earl of Angus, daughter and heiress of MALCOLM 6th Earl of Angus & his wife Mary Berkeley. Her third marriage is confirmed by letters close dated 2 Dec 1247 under which Henry III King of England granted four bucks from Eleham Park to "the countess of Angus, the wife of Richard of Dover"[537]. Lord Richard & his wife had two children:

i) RICHARD of Chilham (1 Feb [1246/47]-[1265/66]). A writ following the death of "Richard de Dovor and Rose his wife" names "Richard son of Richard de Dovor, aged 21 on the eve of the Purification next" as heir[538]. Lord of Chilham. m as her first husband, JOAN de Grey, daughter of SIMON de Grey & his wife ---. She married secondly as his second wife, Gilbert de Pecche.

ii) ISABEL of Chilham (after 1245-18 Mar 1292). The primary source which confirms her parentage and two marriages has not yet been identified. She was heiress of her brother at Chilham. "Alexander de Balliol and Isabella his wife…going to Scotland" appointed attorneys for their affairs in England[539]. Leland quotes a manuscript which records the death "XV Kal Apr…apud Chilham" in 1292 of "Domina Isabella de Dovora comitissa de Assele" and her burial "Cantuar: in ecclesia Christi"[540]. A charter dated 1 May 1292 ordered the valuation of the assets of "the late Isabella countess of Athol to her husband Alexander de Balliol"[541]. m firstly (before 1265) as his second wife, DAVID of Strathbogie Earl of Atholl, son of JOHN of Strathbogie Earl of Atholl & his wife Ada Hastings Ctss of Atholl (-Carthage 6 Aug 1270). He died while on Crusade in Tunisia. m secondly (shortly after 7 Nov 1270) Sir ALEXANDER Balliol of Cavers, co Roxburgh, son of Sir HENRY Balliol & his wife Lora [Lauretta] de Valoignes (-[19 Apr 1310/Jun 1311]). Lord of Chilham, by right of his wife.

b) ISABEL (-7 Jul [1276/77], bur Abbey of St Augustine, Bristol). The Chronicle of Robert of Gloucester names "Sir Richard fiz le rei…Ion" and "the erles daughter of Wareine" his mother, adding that "Sire Morisse of Berkeleye" married his daughter[542]. The primary source which confirms her name has not yet been identified. King Henry III granted her certain manors 10 Aug 1264 "out of compassion for the poverty of his niece"[543]. m (before 12 Jul 1247) MAURICE de Berkeley "the Resolute" feudal Lord of Berkeley, son of THOMAS Lord of Berkeley & his wife Joan de Somery (1218-4 Apr 1281, bur Bristol St Augustine).

c) LORETTE (-after 1248). In the Complete Peerage, she is described as the daughter of "Royce, daughter and heiress of Robert of Dover" who granted the manor of Luddington in 1248 to her daughter and son-in-law[544]. An assize of last presentation brought by the king in 1261 against "William Marmion and Lauretta" shows that "Lauretta was the daughter of Richard FitzRoy"[545]. m (1248) WILLIAM Marmion, son of ROBERT Marmion & his wife Avice de Tanfield (-27 Jul 1275).]

This is the master profile of Richard FitzRoy - and it's also ready to be refreshed I see: Richard fitzRoy, Baron of Chilham

Janice most libraries have a copy of that book. It's big one and very interesting. Also maybe the Royal Descent of 600 Immigrants , is a good one. Some libraries have it. I know the N.E.Hist. gen. in Boston has it. I have utilied it there. Great reference. Both authors of two books I mentioned earlier have also referenced it. I am sure you can find it in other places. There is another one with similar title of 500 Immigrants. The first one I mentioned is more recent. Been updated. The Angevin Kings of England can be found on line .

Janice most libraries have a copy of that book. It's big one and very interesting. Also maybe the Royal Descent of 600 Immigrants , is a good one. Some libraries have it. I know the N.E.Hist. gen. in Boston has it. I have utilied it there. Great reference. Both authors of two books I mentioned earlier have also referenced it. I am sure you can find it in other places. There is another one with similar title of 500 Immigrants. The first one I mentioned is more recent. Been updated. The Angevin Kings of England can be found on line . Judy

Janice most libraries have a copy of that book. It's big one and very interesting. Also maybe the Royal Descent of 600 Immigrants , is a good one. Some libraries have it. I know the N.E.Hist. gen. in Boston has it. I have utilied it there. Great reference. Both authors of two books I mentioned earlier have also referenced it. I am sure you can find it in other places. There is another one with similar title of 500 Immigrants. The first one I mentioned is more recent. Been updated. The Angevin Kings of England can be found on line . Judy

Janice most libraries have a copy of that book. It's big one and very interesting. Also maybe the Royal Descent of 600 Immigrants , is a good one. Some libraries have it. I know the N.E.Hist. gen. in Boston has it. I have utilied it there. Great reference. Both authors of two books I mentioned earlier have also referenced it. I am sure you can find it in other places. There is another one with similar title of 500 Immigrants. The first one I mentioned is more recent. Been updated. The Angevin Kings of England can be found on line . Judy

Who is Richard FitzRoy's mother? Unknown or Adela de Warenne?

Thanks Judy; I'll check our library online. NY has a good intra-library program, even with universities, and we also live in a college town where the library is open to the public. Our library also has Heritage Quest for their members to use (just wish the 1930 index was ready - or that we could just access the images, but not yet).

I think I've heard of 600 Immigrants book; does it cover lots of southern families? I might be getting it mixed up with another book. I know I looked one of them up and none of my families were in it so I didn't pursue further research.

I'd love to get to Boston to see the Winthrop Papers! I'm descended from John Winthrop's niece, Elizabeth Fones - "The Winthrop Woman". Just think, the family wanted to wipe out every trace of her in the early 1900s!!
Janice

Brendan, Medieval Lands doesn't have a first name for Richard FitzRoy's mother, just 'daughter' de Warenne. I think the peerage might have 'chosen' one of the daughters though. But she was a de Warenne.