Mary (Bolyen) Carey

Wish I could help lol I'm still new after six months :) With your help I've found a lot of my ancestors children and such :)

Cathy,

Please post the URL (from the address bar) of the profile in question to this discussion. I also have this ancestry but it's hard to analyze and help answer the question without the profile easily at hand.: )

Erica Howton
Curator

http://www.geni.com/c/1530aa1c8ae425fe405e847ce4a4ea0bf42603b2

This is the link that shows how I'm related to Sybil Beauchamp and it lists that the line goes through Mary Catherin Knollys Carey to Henry VIII as her father......

Theresa, that's what we're all in this to do - help each other!
Erica, thanks for your help!

That link didn't work for me. Could you put a link to Mary Bolyen Carey?

Catherine Carey, Chief Lady of the Bedchamber

Cathy, I have been looking at this tree, but got sidetracked because:
Mary Catherine Knollys (Carey) is your third cousin 14 times removed

I had no idea. So, I looked further
Margaret de Beauchamp, of Bledsoe is your 16th great grandmother

She is King Henry VII's great grandmother. Whoa

You should consider your line to go through the Careys, not the Tudors since it is only a rumor about fathering children with Mary Carey. My friend Emily is an expert (fancy word for "big ol' know it all" lol) at British Royal History and emphasized that since Henry VIII so VERY desperate to have a male heir that he would have at least claimed her son, bastard or no.

Her ranting about horrible horrible inaccuracies when I tried to watch "The Other Boleyn Girl" once was especially amusing. LOL

Thank you Brendan for checking. When I open her profile it tells me she is my 12th GG-grandmother. It's confusing that it showed you that we're cousins. Is there a user manual for Geni? (lol)

Thanks Dine for your guidance. I thought that was most likely the prudent way of looking at it. Is there a way of disconnecting the tudor line from my tree?

We're connected two different ways to the same person, so we're cousins. :)

I'm not pro, so I can't see the path between us. If she's my 16 gg-grandmother and your 12 gg-grandmother and we're 16th cousins once removed, we connect probably two generations down from her or through another way all together. Cool. We are Royal Cousin's. :)

Now that's a great question and answer about disconnecting ourselves from Henry VIII. Who is the real father? How do we best reach out to descendants for the bad news LOL.

Dine,

Is there any way you can find the documentation (sites are good) your know it all friend gets her info from? The logic is of course impeccable.

Brendan,

Would the project tool be useful here? What families are we talking about? The Careys, the Boleyns ? I've been thinking about Tudor period "minor nobility" projects, so many Mayflowers claim ancestry there.

I also need to make sure our British history / Tudor experts weigh in.

Cathy

As you can see you're raised a great question, not so dumb at all.

Now let's put our collective minds to work for the best way for Geni to represent historical documented truth. :)

Erica, http://www.geni.com/people/Bj%C3%B8rn-P-Brox/285725352490006131#/ta... manages most of the profiles around Henry VIII, King of England and all of the other royalty.

Bjørn, do you want to set up a project to clean up these profiles? It's very clean already, but there are a few duplicates that I noticed.

The link didn't work. Take two.
Private User

Do you collaborate with Bjorn? Send him a collaboration request if you don't. I do and therefore have access to most of those profiles.

Ah, Henry Vlll is getting cleaned up as part of the Elizabeth of York Project, I see. So we need to shoot them a note about the Mary Boleyn question ... probably already on the plate.

So Brendan, I think the curators Bjorn, Ofir and Heather Bond will take care of the Henry Vlll / Mary Boleyn relationship, although any documentation we can supply will very much help.

The question becomes should we move on to a Project for the Careys / Boleyns? Anyone looked to see how clean their trees are? Like I said, I've been wanting to get into Tudor period minor nobility as a dependency for Mayflower cleanup. Hamilton is also another family important here if I recall correctly.

Brendan, we're 16th cousins, once removed! We intersect with Catherine West, Baroness la Warr. This has been the most wonderful, strangest experience with Geni! I love it!

And thank you, Erica, for your help!

Thomas Boleyn's grandmother was Lady Margaret Butler, daughter of the 7th Earl of Ormonde. I know through DNA testing that I'm related to the Ormonde's but just don't know the exact lineage yet.

As far as the "relationships" reports on geneaology programs, there was so many intermarriages with cousins marrying cousins, that the relationships change on my Family Treemaker software all the time. For instance, my grandkids have a 5th great-grandfather in Quebec who has 3 sons who are all 4th great-grandfathers to them. Sometimes the software says one is a 4th great-grandfather, and sometimes it says a 4th great uncle. I don't know if there is a way to have a "grandfather" relationship dominate over an "uncle" designation on the report. I'll leave it to the programmers.
With the Butlers, they were constantly marrying their cousins between the various houses of Ormonde. I'm sure other families were the same.

I wrote a note to the Elizabeth of York Project team asking them to break off Henry VIII fatherhood of Mary Boleyn's children.

How is the Carey / Boleyn line otherwise? Clear or snarled up?

Mary Boelyn Carey Mary Boleyn was my 12th Great Grandmother. I am very interested in this tree also and have done a lot of work on this tree. My Granddaughter had done extensive research in college on her and the Careys. I will see if I can get that documentation from her.

Myrna you are my 12th cousin, once removed. Very happy to meet you!

Catherine Carey, Chief Lady of the Bedchamber is your 15th great aunt. That's kind of close, right? OMG I am royalty! Who knew:)

Myrna, you do realize that gives us a different line of cousinhood from the one we recently discovered thru the Sawyers / Converse? Kind of dizzying, really.

Katherine Howard, Countess of Nottingham is someone I need to check closely, she seems to be my direct ancestress.

Catherine Howard, Countess of Nottingham is your 13th great grandmother.

Catherine, the first Countess of Nottingham, was a favorite with Queen Elizabeth I. When Catherine died at a young age in February 1603, the Queen “fell into a deep melancholy and herself died March 20th.”

How interesting!

Hi All

I am one of the project managers of "Elizabeth of York family"
http://www.geni.com/projects/Elizabeth+of+York+family

so obeviously I'm very interested in this discussion and also what you have to say

I've done a little bit of cleaning around Mary's profile and I would love to find out more about your sources for this "mystery"

I would also like to thank Erica for bringing this discussion to my attention

Have a Nice Day
:-)

Ofir

Concerning the Boleyn-Butler relationship, there has been a rumor for over 500 years that Queen Elizabeth I had a child with her cousin Thomas Butler, 10th Earl of Ormonde. This child was Piers Butler of Duiske, his father's favorite among his legitimate children and at least 12 illegitimate ones.There is anecdotal information , but this is the most interesting link I have found. There are also rumors that Queen Elizabeth was the mother of Sir Francis Bacon and Richard Devereaux, Earl of Essex as well as William Shakespeare!

I am a member of The Butler Society. This is from their scholarly website:
Piers Butler (d, 1601) of Duiske, Co. Kilkenny.

Clue: He was base son of Black Tom, 10th Earl of Ormond (d, 1614), but who was his mother? (per Dame Elizabeth Butler-Sloss, whose husband is an heir-general of this Piers).

Reply: Black Tom (b, c. 1531 and brought up a Protestant at Court) was in England until Nov. 1554. The Virgin Queen (b, 1533) is said to have called him her black husband. In any event, they became lifelong friends, as evidenced in moulded plaster and carven stone by her initials paired with his, the royal arms displayed with those of Butler and her portrait replicated in the motif of the carefully restored frieze, in the house he built at Carrick-on-Suir, Co. Tip; and in 1955 Blake Butler, who was no mean pincernalogist, wrote to me: "the story of their child existed in their lifetime and was repeated to this day (J.R.I.A.S. (1929), 41; Waterford Archaeol Soc., ii, 224; etc.)". This Piers (whose year of death was incorrectly given as 1603 in Carrigan, Ossory, ii, 297) must have been born before 1560 because he was granted a lease (of Duiske) as early as 2 Nov. 1580 (Irish Monastic Deeds, 271). As Blake Butler went on to observe, the extent to which Piers was favoured in his father's Will indicated his mother was someone of great importance; and Blake Butler managed to identify the mother of each of the dozen illegitimate children Black Tom is known to have had, except for two, viz: a daughter, Elles, and this Piers. Towards the end of 1553 the future Queen Elizabeth might have had the opportunity to conceive Piers. In the following Feb. she was said to be pregnant at Ashridge and, having gone to Woodstock, via Windsor, in May 1554, she spurned medical aid, with the brave words, "I am not minded to make any stranger privy to the state of my body, but commit it to God". Finally, after dining, 11 Dec. 1921, with Cora, widow of 9th Earl of Strafford (killed by a train, 1899), the 3rd Lord Oranmore & Browne troubled to note in his well-informed Journal that she then told him that her husband "was in waiting at Windsor when Holmes, the librarian, showed him a little packet of letters he had discovered in the library - they consisted of the charges made by Doctor, Midwife etc. for the confinement of Queen Elizabeth with letters from the Queen directing that the child should be sent to some place in Cornwall to be brought up with her two children, who were all to bear the name of Tudor - Holmes sent these letters to Queen Victoria to see and he told Lord Strafford that a few days afterwards he saw the Queen who told him that she had read the letters with great interest, but as they were of no historical interest (!) it would be better that they should be burnt. Accordingly she made him burn them in her presence" (quoted by kind permission of the present Lord Oranmore & Browne, via John Butler of Rotherfield, Sussex).

My great-grandfather James Butler was born in 1832. about 10 miles away from the 10th Earl's estate at Carrick-on-Suir. The quest for my link continues. Mary

CORRECTION for earlier post: Lady Margaret Butler was the MOTHER of Thomas Boleyn and thus the grandmother of Anne, Mary and George Boleyn. So the 7th Earl of Ormonde was the grandfather of Thomas Boleyn.

Take a look at "Mary Boleyn's Cary Children--Offspring of King Henry VIII?" by Anthony Hoskins, Gen.Mag 1997, revised 2007 and posted (see Google etc.). Gary Boyd Roberts 1n 2018 refers to it as often "brilliantly" argued. Royal Descents of 900 Immigrants, p xii. HFS

So the evidence was destroyed and no copies were kept - how conVEEENient! :-D