Naming Conventions for the Historical Tree on Geni

Hi Marsha:

I usually handle alternate spellings by placing them in the nickname field, or if it is a frequently used alternate spelling (or nickname, such as "Dodad" for Alexander Ellis, my second great grandfather, if memory serves me correctly), I'll include it in parenthesis or in quotations next to the primarily used name.

That would be another wish list item - a better display of frequently used nicknames, even if it required a new separate field for alternate names that aren't so frequently used.

I think we should get together for a convention so we can settle down and get this problem out of the way once for all. Ask 20 people and you will get 20 different ways of how they feel like a persons name should be written and how it should be displayed on Geni, which name is the most important to show and "she lived with that name 24 days longer than the name she got from her first husband, and she used both of her married names longer than her maiden name" and last but not uncommon "it's the name on the gravestone".

How about we invite board members from every country's genealogical societies to the convention held in Kongsberg, Norway Saturday October 30th 2010. All of you here on Geni that are interested in this question and feel they have something to say on the matter, are of course also invited.

Will it help any? Would it be useful? Could we get to an agreement about how names should be written according to place and time? Could we get an agreement about which of the last names we should use as main last name in a persons lifespan? These are extremely important questions, people, and shouldn't be taken lightly! Think about it. What would you answer? I'm sorry to say, after seeing all the different post here, that the answers to all of the questions are probably no. And I am really sorry that we haven't got past our differences in these matters here on Geni a long time ago. The professional genealogists came to a standard a long time ago, why do we have to invent the gunpowder all over again as the saying goes in norwegian. But if that is what you wish.

Hope I see you all in Kongsberg at the end of the month so we can settle this once and for all.

Sorry Remi:

Although I've heard very good things about visiting Norway, I also heard it's probably not a country I could afford (and I simply don't have the spare cash for the plane ticket anyway). Now Valparaiso or Santiago in Chile, I could afford...

Remi,

I have not yet successfully linked myself to any Scandinavian ancestry, although there is an enticing character lurking in Idaho called "Old Pete" Peterson or Petersen.

Luckily I live in New York, New York, one of the most (if I may brag) multi cultural societies on the planet. (Don't ask me to prove that: I'm bragging, exaggeration expected.) We have one very small (geographically speaking) school district that boasts, we are able to handle children from 191 countries and 81 languages here. (OK probably more than a small exaggeration on that stat. It's the 191 countries that sticks in my mind.)

New York, NY also happens to be chock full of old cemeteries, accessible to the public, a nice spot for a quiet moment on a busy day.

Come and do your own personal survey sampling to gain an impression on a reasonable method to trace ancestry in Colonial America.

Reg,

Are you in London? Have you sampled accessible cemeteries over the yeas as I have living in Cape Cod, Boston and New York?

Also, I was wondering when, more or less, the convention started under English Common Law for women to be known by their husband's last name? It already existed by the time the English were settling America (1620/1621, courtesy of the "Mayflower" project study, original source: Gov. Bradford's first hand / contemporaneous record keeping of the "Mayflower" Passengers, link to the source here: http://wiki.geni.com/index.php/Mayflower_Passengers).

Repeating the wiki link as it may have gotten stuck in a parentheses:

http://wiki.geni.com/index.php/Mayflower_Passengers

And I believe Anne Marit is updating her previous Wiki pages on "naming conventions."

Anyone can make themselves a Geni Wiki account and start using it.

Remi,

I am sure there are professional genealogists from the New York area going to Kongsburg. Probably a gaggle of them. They won't disagree with you in principle. It's about how to use the available software.

As I said, your problem is not databasing, it is DISPLAY .... and that's a GUI enhancement for Geni to make once they can afford to do so.

Repeating Anne Marit's Wiki link from the top of the discussion:

http://wiki.geni.com/index.php/Naming_Conventions

Erica
Sometimes I will take a walk through the local cemetery.
There are some very interesting grave stones in there
Russian Orthodox
Polish
Chinese
The only family grave stone I have seen [so far] is located in a village graveyard in Renfrewshire, to the west of Glasgow, where my gt-grandfather was buried.
I know that I have ancestors who were buried in Westminster Abbey, and some of the other cathedrals. Some are in the local parish church of where they lived. I find it very distressing reading about where they were buried only to find out that the place was left to rot and ruin following the Reformation under Henry VIII. Glastonbury Abbey is one of these places.
Then again in France, where the revolutionaries plundered the tombs left right and centre.
Very sad.

{please note my UK –English spelling}

Erica,

Hasn't a good chunk of this thread covered discussion as to why Anne Marit's wiki is bogus, broken, suboptimal, whatever?

In particular, her assertion that title should go EITHER in the suffix field (where they don't belong, since it's a suffix field, not a "random junk from somewhere else" field), OR in the last name (where they don't belong, since it's a last name field, not a "random junk from somewhere else" field!

Geni is, by design and nature, collaborative. One individual, no matter how well intentioned, cannot and should not mandate One True Way.

Malc.

Did you miss the text "(if there is no other surname)"?

The text is also very clear about following country / language / historical period.

Just a general note: top-down never really works for me. Unless of course I'm on top.

In all seriousness, if you want those of us on the front lines to pay attention to a naming convention, you have to get our buy-in on it. We are all volunteers and we are doing this for whatever reasons, with different target audiences, etc. Either you need our input before we accept a "naming convention" or the system has to be adjusted so that it is "dummy proof," that "junk that doesn't go anyplace else" has it's own field, etc. Otherwise, expect it all to be ad hoc and constantly changing.

I have a personal convention that I follow, and it contrasts sharply with a few of the other conventions presented on her (I refuse to use the suffix for titles, for instance, wherever I have a say, and I will purge all-cap last names as I come across them - all caps last name is a style that emerged in the 19th century that probably should be left behind in that century - and probably should never have been started). But I'm only going to be as strict in implementing my preferred style in my areas of the tree, and in the more common areas, I'm only going to be concerned with accuracy (I will defer to sources for the most part, but references to the Holy Roman Empire before 962 I have declared a Holy Crusade against). Of course if I run into: "George van de De Serbia Swabia of Prince Germany", I'm going to correct that in my own style, no matter the other "naming conventions" floating around.

And that's my "dos pesos chilenos"...

Funny, your conventions meet my conventions, how did that happen. Also Malc. won the argument about display name as far as my Tree Groves are concerned, and I have been making sure Lt. Ensign Deacon etc. get taken out of the "suffix" as I cleanup Colonial America.

Cool... allies. :)

How would everyone correct "George van de De Serbia Swabia of Prince Germany" ??

I'd look it up on Medieval Lands.... :)

I've been meaning to ask if Google translate covers ancient Greek, Latin, and Runic yet.

Reg,

I laughed out loud at that one. You will appreciate locked Master Profiles quite a bit.

I think it covers modern Greek. I did find a Latin translator, but it only covers one word at a time. I'd have to Google it again though as "my head is like a sieve" sometimes.

And I'm sure there will be an online runic fortune teller sooner than there will be an online runic translator.... but then again, Icelandic... who knows?

Reg, I know I should be using http://tinyurl.com/35bqw5v but I can't resist testing your cartography.

The proper place name and spelling for Leyden, The Netherlands, ca. 1620/1621, is: ?

And do you know of any beautiful old maps on line tracing the passage from Leiden to Plymouth to Plymouth?

Leiden, modern Dutch
Leyden, English and archaic Dutch
Leithen, middle ages
In 1648 it was Leyden, in Dutch

This is not cartography - this is history

When you give me links to maps it will be both. :) :)

So ca. 1620, Leyden, Holland?

I know the time says "today at 7:54 PM" but it is 3:54 AM for me.

A perfect time for creative googling! There's no rush of course, but I do love old maps (accurate or not:))

And you're right, we all need to stop living on California time and have the site adjust for our local time zones.

I wouldn't mind living in California time if I had other California amenities....

last time I lived on California time, I had Washington state amenities...

Could we get Geni to change the font it uses from sans-serif to serif?
At the moment I and l look the same
But ‘I’ = uc ‘i’
And ‘l’ = lc ‘L’

Names ‘Old & New’
In England the standardisation (mid Victorian) of spelling the spelling all types on names was left up to the person who was in charge of completing forms or in charge of the parish register – the local priest. One must assume that he could both read and write.
The local priest was appointed by the bishop and it is very likely that he would not have been born local to the area. He would have used spelling as to how he heard the pronunciations. Thus we have variations in the spelling of persons’ names.
Thus we get – Ann, Anna, Anne, and Hanna
The letters “I” and “Y” were interchangeable
Then you have a major problem with English v Welsh language.
Take two of the most common Welsh surnames “Evens” and “Jones” [my name]
We have to agree that most of those names have some sort of Welsh origin.
Yes!
We have one ‘hell’ of a problem – there is no letter “V” or “J” in the Welsh alpherbet.
Evens is less of a problem as in Welsh ‘f’ = ‘v’ [English], Welsh ‘ff’ = ‘f’ [English].
This the welsh town names ending in “…von” have all been changed to “…fon” please not the there is no change in the pronunciation.
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Place names also suffer from this – take the 1891 UK census, which was transcribed by the LDS. I was looking for a family which originated in north-east Essex and moved to London. I found one likely candidate but some of the children were born in “Thirley” and “Woodtide” both in Surrey. It was not until I found the name of a landowner “Lord Asburton” that I put 2 and 2 together. They were not “Thirley” and “Woodtide” but instead “Shirley” and “Woodside” located close to Ashburton House near Croydon.
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Nottingham - Before it was modified the name had several forms, e.g. Snothryngham, Snottingaham, Snottingham—but Snotengaham was the earliest. This ending “ham” is akin to the word home, and is of Anglo-Saxon origin. It tells us of a people who came to this country—not, as the Romans did, to exploit—but to colonise and to make for themselves a home. It is not at all unlikely that Snottingham was the home of an Anglian family—Snot (the wise) by name. Thus with the possessive “ing” the whole word means “The home of Snot.”
The county was at first called Snottinghamshire.
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Please note – In England the county names – Devon, Suffolk, and Norfolk do not have ‘shire’ on the end. The county of Durham is always “Co. Durham” or County Durham.
Salop and Shropshire can be interchangeable, but beware… in the 1970’s and 80’s the official name of the county was “Salop” it is now back to Shropshire. Over the same period the county of Rutland was made part of Leicestershire, and Herefordshire and Worcestershire were joined together to make the county of “Hereford and Worcester”.
There have over time been countless changes to the English county boundaries, some good, some bad, and for political reasons.
The standardisation of English place name spelling came with the introduction of the railways and the need to have time-tables.
However, on a school holiday to north Wales we saw one place name spelt three different ways on three signposts.