According to Medlands:
https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/JERUSALEM%20NOBILITY.htm#HelvisRam...
BAUDOUIN [I] (-[Feb/Dec] 1138). Lord of Rama [Rames]. ... m (divorced) as her first husband, STEPHANIE, sister of PAYEN Lord of Nablus, daughter of --- (-after 3 Jul 1155). ... m (divorced) as her first husband, STEPHANIE, sister of PAYEN Lord of Nablus, daughter of --- (-after 3 Jul 1155).
Baudouin [I] & his wife had [four] children:
d) HELVIS ([1115]-after 1158). The Lignages d'Outremer name "Helvoys" as the daughter of "mesire Baudoyn" & his wife, recording that she married "Belleem a la Barbe"[769]. Another manuscript of the Lignages expands by naming her "Helvis, la seur Phelipe de Naples de mere, qui estoit dame de Rames, fille de Bauduin seignor de Rames"[770]. “Reinerius de Ramis”, fearing death, donated property to “infirmis Sancti Lazari secus muros Jerusalem”, in the presence of “...me Barisano, Hugone...ac Balduino filiis meis, nepotibus ipsius...atque muliere mea, sorore eius”, confirmed by “Barisanus et Hugo ac Balduinus filii mei”, by charter dated 1148[771]. "Balduinus…in sancta Iherusalem Latinorum rex quartus" confirmed the donation by "Hugo de Hybelino et…fratris sui Balduini et sororis sue Hermengardis domine Tiberiadis et matris sue Helois…" to the church of the Holy Sepulchre, Jerusalem by charter dated 14 Jan 1155[772]. The Lignages d'Outremer record her second marriage to "le conestable Manassier" after the death of her first husband[773]. Her parentage is confirmed by the charter dated 1160 under which "Hugo de Ybelino…Ramathensis domino" names "Balduini avi mei"[774], which can only refer to his maternal grandfather as his paternal grandfather's name is deduced as Balian from other sources. William of Tyre describes her as "domini Baliani senioris viduam" when recording her second marriage, and names her brothers "Hugonis, Balduini et Baliani Ramatensium"[775]. m firstly ([1130]%29 BALIAN [Barisanus], son of BALIAN Constable of Jaffa & his wife Helvis --- (-[1150/52]). He built the castle of Ibelin in 1141. m secondly ([1152]) as his first wife, MANASSES de Hierges, son of HERIBRAND de Hierges & his wife Hodierne de Rethel (-[Brogne Abbey] 8 Jan 1176). Constable of the Kingdom of Jerusalem.
https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/JERUSALEM%20NOBILITY.htm#BalianIbe...
Balian [II] & his wife had six children:
However, the "traditional" sources show Helvis as the wife of Balian ll's father:
https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/JERUSALEM%20NOBILITY.htm#BalianIbe...
BALIAN [I] ([1070/80]-[Feb 1141/27 Sep 1145). The origin of Balian is not known. According to the Lignages d'Outremer, "Balian le Fransois fu frere au comte Guillaumin de Chartres" but this seems unlikely, the same source conflating Balian [I] with Balian [II][780]. .... m HELVIS, daughter of ---. "Balyanus Joppensis constabularius" donated property to the church of St Jean, Nablus, for the salvation of "uxoris Heluissæ", by charter dated May 1122, confirmed by "Hugone Rametensi, Balduino fratre eius domino Mirabelli, necnon Baliano"[787].
Balian [I] & his wife had [four] children:
It seems unreasonable to show two pairs, Balian + Helvis parents of Balian + Helvis.
Some of the difficulty seems to be about her mother, Stephanie.
This was discussed on the medievalists mailing list back in 2020:
The mystery of Stephanie, Heiress of Nablus
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/9r31cikwXnI/m/...
Stephanie was presumably of Naples as her brother (uncle to her children) was from Naples.
She married variously Baudoin Lord of Rama who is recorded as having died between Feb and Dec 1138
She also married Guy de Milly who is recorded as dying 1126
She had three known children: Helvis was Barisan Ibelin by 1133 at least; Phillip de Milly Lord of Nablus married Isabella of Oultrejordain; Henry "Le Buffle" de Milly Lord of Petra married Agnes Garnier of Sidon
No matter how I try to rearrange the known dates and events I can't figure out which husband Stephanie married first.
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/9r31cikwXnI/m/...
Hans Eberhard Mayer discussed the scheme of Rüdt von Collenberg at length, maintaining "But the real trouble comes with the two children she [Stephania] had from Baldwin of Ramla, Renier and Helvis. Renier was at least 8 years old when he witnessed a charter in 1141 ... He was, therefore, not born later than 1133, when his mother was ca. 44. This is also still possible".
However, it is scarcely if at all possible that Renier's sister Helvis could have been born after 1126, since her son Hugo was making requests to his king and count by 14 January in 1156 when her daughter Ermengard occurs with him and their brother Balduin under her marital title as lady of Tiberias, along with their maternal half-uncles Philip of Nablus, Guy Francigena and Henri Bubalus, see pp 76- nos. 299 and 300 here:
https://archive.org/details/registaregnihier00rhuoft/page/n83/mode/2up
and pp 117-118 (= no. 300 above) here:
https://archive.org/details/cartulairedelgl00jergoog/page/n127/mode....
Peter Stewart
