Barisan "the Old", 1st lord of Ibelin - Origins of Bailan le François

https://archive.org/details/crusaderkingdomo0000murr/page/104/mode/...

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Barisan (Balian), who founded what proved to be the most famous dynasty in Outremer, the Ibelins, was probably originally a follower of Daibert of Pisa.’ Nevertheless it is often overlooked that the early fortune of the Ibelins owed a great deal to the acquisition of the lordship of Ramla through the marriage of Balian and Helvis, daughter of Baldwin of Ramla. There are strong indications that Baldwin was a Fleming, which is further evidence of the importance of the Flemish element. ...

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A charter issued in 1127 by Barisan, constable of Jaffa, and confirmed by Count Hugh of Jaffa gives as its first two witnesses Wido scilicet de Puteolo and Wido de Domnapetra: Delaborde, Chartes de Terre Sainte provenant de l'abbaye de N.-D. de Josaphat, no. 15 (= RRH no. 120). The first can be identified as Guy of Le Puiset, lord of Méréville (Essonne, arr. Etampes) and uncle to Hugh II of Jaffa: E. Mabille, Cartulaire de Marmoutier pour le Dunois (Chateaudun, 1874), no. 144; Dion, ‘Le Puiset au XIe et XIle siécle’, pp. 22-23. The second was Guy, son of Theobald of Dampierre-en-Yvelines (Yvelines, arr. Rambouillet) and Isabella, daughter of Milo I of Montlhéry and Bray: ...

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22. Baldwin of Ramla A certain Baldwin was in charge of the defence of the castle at Ramla by 1106 and also held property in the town and territory of Ramla. He seems to have been first a royal castellan, later becoming (by 1126) a vassal of Hugh, count of ‘affa. After the revolt and dispossession of Hugh, Baldwin held Ramla directly from the crown. His lordship eventually passed to his daughter Helvis, wife of *Barisan of Ibelin. Nothing is known directly of Baldwin’s origins, although it is possible that he could be identified with Baldwinus de Hestrut or Hastrut castelhs Flandriae, who first appears in 1102, but is last mentioned under this surname at the Third Battle of Ramla in August 1105. If he had been given lands at Ramla then it is possible that from 1105/1107 the new designation ‘of Ramla’ was commonly applied to him. The toponymic form Hestrud was a Walloon variant of the placename Heestert in Flanders (B, West-Vlaanderen, arr. Kortryk).!9 SOURCES: AA pp. 591-93, 621, 636; RRH nos. 57, 80, 87, 90, 129a, 164, 181; Mayer, ‘Carving up Crusaders: The Early Ibelins and Ramlas’, in Oxiremer: Studies in the History of the Crusading Kingdom of Jerusalem presented to Joshua Prawer, ed.B. 7Z.,.Kedar, Fa, Mayer and R. C. Smail (Jerusalem, 1982), pp. 101-18; Mayer, “The Origins of the Lordships of Ramla and Lydda’, 537-52.

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24. Barisan

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24. Barisan. Barisanus (a name given in Old French soures as Balina) was in the kingdom of Jerusalem by 1115, when a confirmation of grants to the abbey of Josaphat records his gift of a property with vineyards in territori Jheroslimintino. In the reign of Fulk he became lord of Ibelin, and by his mrraige with Elisabeth (Helvis), daughter of Baldwin of Ramla, he became the founder of what was to become the most enduring and important dynasties of the Latin East. His origins are obscure. The Lignages d’Outremer, a genealogical work originally composed by an author close to the Ibelin family, claim him as Bahan le Frangots, who was supposedly a brother of one Count Guilin of Chartres, and who arrived in the Holy Land around 1140. Since the chronology and descent from a non-existent count of Chartres are impossible, the reference to Chartres has been explained as a case of Ansippung or appropriation of the genealogy of the Le Puiset family, who had been viscounts of Chartres.'! RileySmith has made the ingenious suggestion that in fact the name Guilin refers to Gilduin of Le Puiset, abbot of Josaphat, and that Barisan was probably the brother of Gilduin and Hugh II of Le Puiset, and uncle to Count Hugh of Jaffa.'* The most convincing explanation of Barisan’s origins is probably still that given by Richard, who showed that the name Barisanus, originally meaning ‘inhabitant of Bari’, was common in eleventh-century Sardinia and other parts of Italy and that Barisan was originally a Pisan who came to the East in the entourage of Daibert, archbishop of Pisa.

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B Riley-Smith, The First Crusaders, pp. 172-73. However, no documents of Barisan or the Le Puisets allude to any such relationship. For example, in RRH no. 120 Batisan refers to Hugh of Jaffa only as dominus meus Hugo, comes Jope, where one might have expected an allusion to a kinship. It is also noticeable that when Hugh of Jaffa tevolted against Fulk in 1134 in defence of the rights of his cousin Queen Melisende, his constable Barisan refused to support him, and deserted to the king’s side, which is not so likely of a close kinsman when other vassals remained loyal:

This is a second contemporary source nothing that there was no such person as Count Guilin of Chartres for Barisan to be a brother of.

nothing = noting.

As I said, I am not a medievalist and do not consider myself qualified to interpret primary sources correctly, particularly in translation. There are two qualified academic professionals in published books, as well as Cawley's MedLands study of primary sources, showing Basilan's origins as unknown.

To reiterate Medlands:

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/JERUSALEM%20NOBILITY.htm#BalianIbe...

BALIAN [I] ([1070/80]-[Feb 1141/27 Sep 1145). The origin of Balian is not known. According to the Lignages d'Outremer, "Balian le Fransois fu frere au comte Guillaumin de Chartres" but this seems unlikely, the same source conflating Balian [I] with Balian [II][780].

[780] Lignages d'Outremer, Le Vaticanus Latinus 4789, CCC.XXXVII, p. 97.

I uploaded the descendant table. I see that it disagrees with Medlands about wife Helvis & so Balian II. Is that the basic of your dispute on the current Balian tree on Geni?

(easier to see from the attachment)

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000216115432831

There's a discussion of the Barisan I & II problem here:

Outremer: Studies in the History of the Crusading Kingdom of Jerusalem Presented to Joshua Prawer by Kedar, Benjamin Z.; Mayer, Hans Eberhard, 1932-; Smail, R. C (Publication date 1982).

Carving up Crusaders: The Early Ibelins and Ramlas
Hans Eberhard Mayer
University of Kiel
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https://archive.org/details/kedar-mayer-smail-outremer/page/100/mod...

n 1965 Count W.H. Riidt de Collenberg' published a genealogy of the early generations of the house of Ibelin, later the most important feudal clan in the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem. As the early Ibelins were already of great importance in the kingdom, their genealogy commands the interest of the crusading historian. Rtidt de Collenberg revised the family’s genealogy as established by Ducange-Rey.’ I accepted his findings at first, but later expressed reservations, on which I now should like to elaborate. Two of his main points are in need of correction, and this will lead us back to Ducange-Rey: (1) that the founder of the family, Barisan-le-Vieux, Constable of Jaffa, must be split into two different Barisans succeeding one another in direct sequence; (2) that a whole additional generation must be inserted into the genealogy of the Lords of Ramla after Baldwin I of Ramla. This argument still seemed to be convincing to me in 1972. ....

Private User

Can you describe better what the tree was before the MPs?

And why do you disagree with Medlands interpretation, which is what Sharon followed in her configuration? So far the only issue I'm unsure of is which Barilon married Helvis (daughter of Baldwin I of Ramla).

OK, the conclusion here is the split must be re-united into one:

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... 3) the traditional genealogy of the early Ibelins and Ramlas must remain valid. Neither is there room for two Helvises or for two Barisans, nor may Hugh and Baldwin of Ibelin be split into Hugh and Baldwin of Ramla and Hugh and Baldwin of Ibelin, respectively. All these beautiful damsels and gallant knights of great renown must be pieced together again into one Helvis of Ramla, one Barisan-le-Vieux, one Hugh of Ibelin-Ramla and one Baldwin of Ibelin- Mirabel (later of Ramla). Requiescant in pace nunc et in saecula saeculorum!

I support the current curating decision on parentage.

Wikipedia's biography (which is sourced):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barisan_of_Ibelin

Barisan of Ibelin (died 1150) was the first lord of Ibelin and the founder of the House of Ibelin in the crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem. His name was later written as "Balian" and he is sometimes known as Balian the Elder, Barisan the Old or Balian I. Barisan was also lord of Ramla from 1138 to 1150.

Barisan's origins are obscure. The Ibelins claimed to be descended from the viscounts of Chartres, but Peter W. Edbury suggests this could perhaps be a fabrication and that Barisan may have been from northern Italy.[1] According to Jonathan Riley-Smith, however, he may have indeed been connected to Chartres, as the brother of Hugh of Le Puiset, Count of Jaffa; he would then have also been a cousin to the Montlhéry family of King Baldwin II of Jerusalem.[2]

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There was no Guilduin, "comte de Chartres," so the genealogy that claims it must be considered suspect, in whole or parts.

The Customer Support ID is a one way ID and will not respond. If you dispute the curating decision, you can appeal to misconduct@geni.com, or as a PRO member, opening a ticket. But be aware that we have already followed "standard" procedure by my curator-peer review of Sharon's work. Community member opinions and contributions are of course more than welcome.

I have a couple of other questions but they will be addressed and resolved in due course.

This I agree with:

Barisan-1st-lord-of-Ibelin WIFE was:
Hélvis, of Rama

Barisan the younger's wife was Maria Komnene.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Komnene,_Queen_of_Jerusalem

In other words, Medlands seems to be following the 1972 accepted genealogy (with 2 Barisan's & 2 Helvis's) that was debunked in 1982 by Hans Eberhard Mayer in "Carving up Crusaders: The Early Ibelins and Ramlas."

Geni is getting more accurate.

I corrected the NON title of Guilduin, "comte de Chartres," last night. See the revisions tab:

Gilduin, abbé at Josaphat

Gilduin du Puiset, vicomte de Chartres's profile was updated by Erica Howton. occupation and suffix Yesterday at 6:44 PM · view

https://www.geni.com/revisions/history/profile-34839866278?a=compare&authenticity_token=cYUP9iamH6VLV13073K2UanzEAydFnqb64YrTyfmtFs%3D&from_id=prev&tab=facts&to_id=86930467890

Gilduin du Puiset, vicomte de Chartres's profile was updated by Erica Howton. about me
Yesterday at 6:43 PM · view

By the way, Customer Support is for technical issues; they defer genealogy disputes to curators. So actually your recourse is for more curating views.

Apologies, that was me inadvertently adding to the suffix last night.

http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Le-Puiset.pdf
(Many sources noted)

Hugues II du Puiset d aft 1110 alias Hugues 1er de Jaffa ep Mabile de Roucy Comte de Jaffa

Shows with brothers

Erard III du Puiset d. 1099 vicomte de Chartres

Gilduin + 1130/35 croisé (1107), religieux à Saint-Martin- des-Champs (1108), Prieur à Lurey-Le-Bourg (1126), Abbé de Notre-Dame du Val (Josaphat, 1129/30) (cité charte 1095)

No brother Bailan.

And if the 1270 source is later proven to be misguided at best? That is the point of scholarly review.

No brother Bailan = no brother Barisan (Balian)