Adele de Soissons - Wives and Children of Gauthier II

A History of the Counts of Brienne (950 – 1210) by Dana Celest Asmoui Ismail. Royal Holloway, University of London (2013) Doctor of Philosophy thesis.< PDF >.

Chapter Three "The New Count of Brienne, Walter II (1125 - 1161) and his Marriage Alliances"

Page 76.

The House of Baudement

Contrary to the suggestion by the authors of the Europäische Stamtafeln (commonly regarded as the authoritative source on the genealogies of the great families of Europe) that Walter married four times, he married only twice. His first wife was Humbeline (sometimes called Adelaide), the daughter of Andrew of Baudement seneschal of Champagne who journeyed to the Holy Land at least on two occasions. 5

5. Evergates, Aristocracy, p. 9. Andrew was given various titles by contemporary sources, however they all connote the position of ‘seneschal’. In the cartularies of Saint Père de Chartres, he is referred to as totius domus sue major [Cartulaire de l’Abbaye de Saint - Père de Chartres, ed. B. E. C. Guérard, 2 vols (Paris, 1840), II, 447]. In the cartulaires of the Yonne, he is referred to as major regiae domus [Cartulaire Générale de l’Yonne,
ed. M. Quantin, 2 vols (Auxerre, 1854), I, 266].

In Geni we show the genealogies as described at FMG Medlands, unless there is compelling reason to show otherwise.

This is the article for the family of GAUTHIER [II] de Brienne son of ERARD [I] Comte de Brienne & his wife Alix de Montdidier (-before 1161).

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/chambrien.htm

They show wives:

1. 1st (unnamed, possible)
2. m [firstly/secondly] ([repudiated before 1147]) HUMBELINE de Baudémont, daughter of ANDRE de Baudémont Seneschal de Champagne & his wife Agnes - "[It is possible that Humbeline married firstly Anseric [II] Seigneur de Chacenay."
3. m [secondly/thirdly] (before 1147) ADELAIS, daughter of -

Comte Gauthier [II] & his [first/second] wife had nine children [this document assumes that Humbeline was the mother of all of Gauthier’s children, in line with the most natural interpretation of the various charters which are quoted here. If Humbeline was the same person as the widow of Anseric [II] Seigneur de Chacenay, several of the older children shown here must have been born from Gauthier’s first marriage.]: ...

The older genealogy, which I believe was debunked by the PhD thesis mentioned above, can be seen here, and is no doubt the source of confusion in older Geni profiles. I've added comments in brackets.

https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00028300&tree=LEO

BIOGRAPHY

Gauthier was born after 1095, the son of Crusader Erard I, comte de Brienne, and Alix, dame de Ramerupt. He married five times. [sic: two or three times according to Medlands]

His first [sic: first or second] marriage was to Humbeline (given by some sources as Adélaide) de Baudement, daughter of André de Baudement, seigneur de Baudement et Braine, and Agnès, dame de Braine. His second [sic: no longer accepted as his marriage] marriage was to (Adèle) de Soissons, [sic: Adele (unknown)] who may have been the daughter of Jean I de Soissons and Aveline de Pierrefonds. Gauthier then married a lady of the de Nesle family, [sic: no longer accepted as his marriage] and, after her death in 1137, he married Humbeline de Troyes, widow of Anséric II, sire de Chacenay [sic: no longer accepted as his marriage]. Finally in 1146 he married a lady called Adélais. [ [sic: his second or third marriage; married before 1147.]

He had at least nine children, of whom André, Erard II, Elwide and Mahaud-Alix would have progeny.

There is some uncertainty about the precise identity of the mothers of Gauthier's children.

_Europäische Stammtafeln_ attributes the above four to his first wife, but other sources attribute André and Erard II to his second wife (Adèle) de Soissons. [sic: all 9 children with 1st/2nd wife, Humbeline.]

If this is in agreement, I will reassign the children accordingly.

Well, the 2013 thesis disagrees with FMG Medlands.

https://pure.royalholloway.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/18393326/A_H...

Page 80

Humbeline, countess of Brienne, likely died in 1138 shortly after she stood witness to a gift granted by her husband to the bishop of Châlons.

Page 81

The House of Soissons

Walter’s second marriage was to Adélaide of Soissons soon after Humbeline’s death. 32 Adélaide was the daughter of John, count of Soissons, who was the great - grandson of Richard I, duke of Normandy, John’s grandfather having been Richard’s bastard son. 33 Unlike the previous marriage, there survives strong charter evidence in support of this union and perhaps more importantly, to confirm the suggestion that this was Walter’s second and final marriage.

32 Although this second wife’s name is not mentioned until 1146, her children, Erard, Andrew and Marie are mentioned in a charter dated 22 January 1143. Therefore, Walter likely married her shortly after Humbeline’s death in 1138 as within a span of five years, he had three children by Adélaide and they are present as witnesses to this charter [CACB, 40].

Page 87

https://pure.royalholloway.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/18393326/A_H...

During eight or nine years of marriage, Adélaide gave Walter three sons for certain and possibly two daughters. 64 The eldest son of this marriage would usurp the patrimony of Walter’s eldest sons from his previous marriage and become Erard II, count of Brienne upon his father’s death. His brother, Andrew, would become count of Ramerupt. Both whom would be acknowledged by chroniclers of the Third Crusade, one praised and noted for his courage and virtue, the other a blemish upon the honour of the dynasty of Brienne. A future son, John, would go on to become abbot of Beaulieu. 65 A daughter, Marie, would disappear from record after 1152. And yet another daughter would marry Barthélemy, lord of Vignory, a crusader who died along with his brother Guy of Vignory, at the siege of Acre in 1191. 66

63 Nesle, II, 6.
64 Erard, future count of Brienne, and his brother Andrew, along with their sister, Marie, are first mentioned in a charter whereby they witness their father approve the rights of the abbey of Bassefontaine [CACB, 41]. John, abbot of Beaulieu, does not make an appearance in the charters until his brother’s tenure as count [CACB, 60].
65 Gallia Christ, XII, 615B and CACB, 60.
66 Cartulaire du Prieure de Saint - Étienne de Vignory, ed. M.d’Arbaumont. (Langres, 1882), {St.Etienne}, pp. 80 - 1: HCC, IV, 53 - 4. His brother, Guy of Vignory, would serve as the inspiration to the chansonnier, Colin Muset [J. Longnon, Les Compagnons de Villehardouin (Geneva, 1978), p. 4]. At the moment of his departure for the Second Crusade, Barthélemy made a donation to the abbbey of Beaulieu [St. . - Etienne, p. 46]

Sharon Doubell

This needs more than my eyes on because of the discrepancies with Medlands.

Hope you have a chance to look over the University thesis. https://pure.royalholloway.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/18393326/A_H...

To recap, the current thinking is Walter ll of Briennes (d. 1160) (probably) had 2 wives, not 5, as you'll see on Wikipedia.

The Peerage (citing Burke's) is garbled.
Europäische Stamtafeln is outdated.

The first was Humberline de Baudemont, daughter of Andre de Baudement & his wife Agnes, and possibly the widow of Eustache de Mareuil. Humberline died or was repudiated 1138 / 1149.

Medlands assigns 9 children to her.

Ismail (2013) shows 3 children, Agnes, Guy & Eustache, and the rest of the children with 2nd wife, Adélaïs de Soissons daughter of Jean I, comte de Soissons

Medlands does not show this parentage for Adelais.

Okay - interesting.
I'll start by setting it up according to FMG, so I can orientate myself - then I'll recotrd the thesis updates.

GAUTHIER [II], Comte de Brienne
s/o ERARD [I] Comte de Brienne & Alix de Montdidier (-<1161)
x ? NN
xx [repudiated <1147]) HUMBELINE de Baudémont
1 [AGNES (c1122/25- >c1191])
2 GUY
3 EUSTACHE (->1133)
4 ERARD [II] (-8 Feb [1190/91])
5 EUSTACHE (-1166 or >)
6 ANDRE (-killed in battle Acre Oct 1189)
7 JEAN
8 MARIE
9 ELVIDE (-1202 or >)
xxx< 1147 ADELAIS
https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/chambrien.htm

HUMBELINE de Baudément (-1166 or >)
d/o Seigneur de Baudément & AGNES

x? Anseric [II] Seigneur de Chacenay
1 JACQUES, Seigneurde Chacenay (-15 Jun c1152/58)
2 ANSERIC [III]
3 THOMAS (->1177)
4 PETRONILLE-ELISABETH (-1165 or >)

xx (repudiated <1147) GAUTHIER [II] Comte de Brienne
1 ? [AGNES (c1122/25- >c1191])
2 GUY
3 EUSTACHE (->1133)
4 ERARD [II] (-8 Feb [1190/91])
5 EUSTACHE (-1166 or >)
6 ANDRE (-killed in battle Acre Oct 1189)
7 JEAN
8 MARIE
9 ELVIDE (-1202 or >)

• https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/nfralaoncou.htm#HumbelineBaudement...
• https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/chambarsein.htm#AnsericIIChacenayd...
• https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/chambrien.htm

Will have to potter away at this over the next days - connectivity at the beach house comes and goes with the weather, I'm afraid.

ADELAIS
d/o NN
x <1147 GAUTHIER [II], Count of Brienne

• https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/chambrien.htm

NN possible first wife of Gauthier II, Comte de Brienne
d/o NN
x possible first wife of Gauthier II, Comte de Brienne

• possible mother of AGNES (c1122/25->c1191] x JACQUES Seigneur de Chacenay

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/chambrien.htm

Regarding Debbie's point

According to the profile notes, Adélaïs de Nesle and Adèle de Soisson are not the same woman / wife. It shows Adelais as his 4th wife with only one child and Adele as his 2nd wife and mother of most of his children. This Geni profile has made Adelais and Adele into one person with Soissons parents meant only for Adele de Soissons. Matilde de Brienne, according to the profile notes wouldn't be Adele's daughter or a Soisson descendant bur rather a daughter of Adelais de Nesle whose parents I have no info on.

Adela/Adelisa does not seem to be a name used by the deNesles, but it is to be noted that Yves Seigneur de Nesle (Yves (I) de Nesle) takes over as Comte de Soissons as a result of the bishop of Soissons deciding in his favour amongst 4 candidates (according to Ishmael's thesis on p 81:

Moreover, on p82, Ismail also makes the connection to the same bishop being named as lord of the goods of Walter's unnamed wife in a charter dating from 1153.

Yves (I) de Nesle 's NN wife is the daughter of Adélaïde, comtesse de Soissons

I don't want to overstate this as proof - but it does suggest that the de Nesle family were also Counts of Soissan - and Gauthier's wife may well have been called both Nesle and Soissan.

Possibly?

Ismail, Page 81

The House of Soissons

Walter’s second marriage was to Adélaide of Soissons soon after Humbeline’s death. 32 Adélaide was the daughter of John, count of Soissons, who was the great - grandson of Richard I, duke of Normandy, John’s grandfather having been Richard’s bastard son. 33 Unlike the previous marriage, there survives strong charter evidence in support of this union and perhaps more importantly, to confirm the suggestion that this was Walter’s second and final marriage.

(Tree: Adelaid's aunt, Ramentrudis, married Ives of Nesle)

In 1141, Renaud, the leper count of Soissons, died without issue. 34 To prevent discord amongst his relatives, he had charged the bishop of Soissons with overseeing the inevitable crisis of succession after his death. 35 The episcopal body of Soissons investigated the suit of four kinsmen who had legitimate claim to the county; Geoffroy of Donzy, Guy of Dampierre, Yves of Nesle and Walter, count of Brienne. 36 After much investigation and deliberation, the county of Soissons was granted to Yves. 37

But also notice the "Nesle" connection through his marriage to Humberline:

A remaining question regarding Walter’s marriage alliances centres on his father - in - law, Andrew of Baudement. During his lifetime, he was known by all of the titles that he would eventually pass on to his granddaughter, Agnés through his eldest son, Guy. His full honour was Andrew, lord of Fere - en - Tardenois, lord of Nesle, lord of Longueville, lord of Quincy and lord of Baudement. It has proven impossible to trace the origin of Andrew’s title, ‘lord of Nesle’. 41

41. ES, XIV, 51

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yves_II,_Count_of_Soissons

Yves II le Vieux of Nesle (Ives, Ivo) (d. 1178), son of Raoul I, Seigneur of Nesle, and his wife Rainurde (Ermentrude) of Eu-Soissons. Seigneur of Nesle, Count of Soissons. Upon the death of Renaud III, Count of Soissons, Yves was chosen as the next count by the Bishop of Soissons,[1] Joscelin de Vierzi.[2]

Yves married Yolande, a daughter of Baldwin IV, Count of Hainaut, and his wife Alice of Namur.[5] They had no children. Upon the death of Yves, his nephew Conon became Count of Soissons.[6]

It looks to me like there was property called Nesle and titles passed through families, so indeed, I could see Adele of Nesle = Adelaide de Soissons.

That would be Yves II "le Vieux" de Nesle, comte de Soissons

Grandson of Yves (I) de Nesle & the Soissons heiress.

And the Soissons heiress looks like she's Ramentrudis (of the chart on page 81).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Nesle

The House of Nesle is a feudal family that spawned a long line of Counts of Soissons and eventually merged with the House of Clermont (see Counts of Clermont-en-Beauvaisis). Nesle is a commune in northern France near Saint-Quentin, Aisne.

Raoul I, who some sources identify as the founder of the family, married Raintrude of Soissons, a daughter of William Busac, Count of Eu and Soissons,[2] and they had five children: ...

2. Baron de Reiffenberg (1848). Godefroid de Bouillon, suite du Chevalier au cygne: avec des recherches sur ... Brussels: Academie Royale de Belgique. p. 142.

I presume Raintrude = NN, heiress = Ramentrudis, daughter of William II Busac d'Eu, comte d'Eu, comte de Soissons in jure uxoris & Adélaïde, comtesse de Soissons

Wikipedia cites:

Dormay, C., Histoire de la ville de Soissons et de ses rois, ducs, comtes et gouverneurs, Soissons, 1664 (available on Google Books) https://books.google.com/books?id=Smq_fvpwvj8C&vq=soissons&source=g...

This shows how the title of Count of Soissons moved from dynasty to dynastry via marriage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counts_of_Soissons

Bar-sur-Aube

• 1057–1079 Adelaide, sister of the previous.

Normans

• 1076 William Busac, also Count of Eu, jure uxoris, husband of the previous
• 1076–1099 Renaud II, son of the previous
• 1099–1115 John I, brother of the previous (John I, Count of Soissons married Aveline de Pierrefonds, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_I,_Count_of_Soissons [no daughters listed at Wikipedia, but these are the parents of Adelaide de Soissons, second wife of Gauthier])
• 1115–1141 Renaud III, son of the previous.

House of Nesle

• 1141–1178 Yves II le Vieux (the Old), great-grandson of William Busac ...

Also to be noted is that one of the titles of Humbeline de Baudémont 's father, André de Baudément, seigneur de Baudément, de la Fère-en-Tardenois, de Nesles is de Nesle.

Sorry - cross-posted the same thought, Erica :-)

But what does this have to do with the Knight of the Swan? (One of the references)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight_of_the_Swan

The earliest versions, preserved in John of Alta Silva's Dolopathos) do not provide specific identity to this knight, but the Old French Crusade cycle of chansons de geste adapted it to make the Swan Knight (Le Chevalier au Cigne, first version around 1192) the legendary ancestor of Godfrey of Bouillon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godfrey_of_Bouillon (leader of the First Crusade)

I'm lost :-)

(Which by the way is now making this interesting, not least because of the charming illustrations.)

https://www.medievalists.net/2024/12/the-swan-knight-and-his-mediev...

https://atlanticreligion.com/2014/09/21/weland-the-swan-children-an...

https://www.swanknightdistillery.com/blogs/blog/who-was-the-swan-kn...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Nesle lists

Baron de Reiffenberg (1848). Godefroid de Bouillon, suite du Chevalier au cygne: avec des recherches sur ... Brussels: Academie Royale de Belgique. p. 142. < GoogleBooks >

as a reference and I can't quite understand why. Look at the bottom of the second column.

Drogon etait fils d'Yves de Nesles ...

Something to do with the First Crusade?

Source: Godefroid de Bouillon, suite du Chevalier au Cygne, avec des recherches sur ... By Baron de Reiffenberg. Page 142. < GoogleBooks >

That refers to Drogo / Dreux de Nesle son of NN de Soissons, héritière de Soissons & Yves (I) de Nesle and gviing Yves (I) a father also called Yves?

Am I reading this correctly?

The Swan Knight was the legendary ancestor of

Godfrey of Bouillon (French: Godefroy; Dutch: Godfried; German: Gottfried; Latin: Godefridus Bullionensis; 1060 – 18 July 1100) was a preeminent leader of the First Crusade, and the first ruler of the Kingdom of Jerusalem from 1099 to 1100.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godfrey_of_Bouillon

So perhaps the is tracing references in the poem??

http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Nesle-Falvy-Flavy.pdf

• Yves I, seigneur de Nesle
  • Yves II, de Nesle seigneur de Nesle et de Falvy
    • Drogon (Dreu) de Nesle, seigneur de Nesle dt de Favly, croise avec Hugues de Vermandois (1096) , cf aussi p. 16
      • Raoul 1er de Nesle ~1060 + 1119/21 seigeur de Nesle et de Falvy (don du moulin de Falvy a l'Eglise de Saint-Quentin 1119) ep.Raintrude (Ermentrude, Ramentrude) d'Eu ~1065 + apres 1076 (ou 1117?) comtesse de Soissons (fille ainee de Guilaume II <Busac>, comte d'Eu et de Soisossn, et d'Ade)
        • Yves III, ep. 1) Isabeau ep. 2) Yolande de Hainaut. s.p.
        • Drogon del Nesle, chevalier, s.p.
        • Raoul II de Nesle, ep. Getrude de Montaigu-Lorraine
          • Conor ....
        • Thierry de Nesle, Archidacre de 'Eglise de Cambrai

The first reference to Adelais as Gauthier's wife is in 1147

"G comes Brene" donated property to ecclesie Sancte Marie de Rameruco" "uxoris Adelisis, Erardi, Andreæ filium meorum atque Marie filie mee" by charter dated 1147

"G comes Brene" donated property to the church of Sancte Marie de Rameruco" with the consent of "my wife Adelis, Erard, my son Andrew, and my daughter Marie"

The second in c1150

"Walterus comes Brenensis" made donations to the priory of Jully-les-Nonnains with the consent of "Adelaidis uxor suæ et filiorum meorum Arardi et Andree et filiarum mearum Marie et Helvidis" by charter dated [1150].

"Walterus comes Brenensis" made donations to the priory of Jully-les-Nonnains with the consent of "Adelaide my own wife and of my sons Arard and Andrea and of my daughters Marie and Helvid"

From this we know Walter had

• a wife called Adelis/Adelaidis by 1147, and still in c1150
• children called Erard/Arard, Andrew/Andrea, Marie in 1147 and still in c1150
• as well as a daughter, Helvid by c1150.

We don't know whether Adelis/Adelaidis is the mother of these children, though.

We do if we accept Ismail's belief that Adelaide & Gauthier were married by 1138.

For a timeline:

• In a charter dated 1133, Walter stood as witness to a grant gift that his father - in - law, Andrew, made to the Knights Templar. 21 In this charter, Walter is noted as having been with his wife and this woman, who was not cited by name, was likely Humbeline. 22
• Walter and Humbeline also had two sons, Guy and Eustace. 28 Guy, who would have been the heir to the county of Brienne, disappeared from record after 1143 and Eustace, the next in line to inherit,80 absent from the extant charters for twenty - three years. 29 Guy may have died shortly after his last appearance in 1143, or he may have left his patrimony, either willingly or by force, once his father remarried. Eustace’s role in the county is also ambiguous as once his father remarried, the titles of Brienne and Ramerupt were granted to the children of his second marriage.
• Humbeline, countess of Brienne, likely died in 1138 shortly after she stood witness to a gift granted by her husband to the bishop of Châlons.31
• Walter’s second marriage was to Adélaide of Soissons soon after Humbeline’s death. 32
• 32 Although this second wife’s name is not mentioned until 1146, her children, Erard, Andrew and Marie are mentioned in a charter dated 22 January 1143. Therefore, Walter likely married her shortly after Humbeline’s death in 1138 as within a span of five years, he had three children by Adélaide and they are present as witnesses to this charter [CACB, 40].
• The authors of the ES suggest that Walter was remarried in 1137 and 1146. 38 However, they are almost certainly mistaken as Walter’s first wife, Humbeline does not disappear from record until 1138 and in this year, she is recognised as his wife, thus eliminating the possibility that he had remarried around 1137. 39 Regarding the supposed fourth marriage, Walter’s unnamed wife in a charter dating from 1153 had as lord of her goods Joscelin, the former bishop of Soissons, which supports themsuggestion that the wife mentioned in this charter was Adélaide of Soissons whom he likely married in 1139.

I don't know how old the children would have to be to be valid witnesses, but Adelaide had 3 children by 1143, it seems. So, married by 1139; and these three were siblings.