Charibert I, King of the Franks at Paris - Charibert l - origins?

Reference: this profile on Geni:

Charibert of Neustria

In the "about"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charibert_of_Hesbaye

http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00076149&tree=LEO

Update: MedLands has removed Chrodbert, Haltbert, and Erlebert as son of Charibert, pending further research.

Medlands

According to Europäische Stammtafeln[458], Chrodbert [I] and his brothers [Haltbert and Erlebert] were sons of "Charibert nobilis in Neustria †635". No reference has been found to this person in any of the primary sources so far consulted and it has been decided to omit him until a positive identification can be made.

• Medlands

  ---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charibert_I

Charibert married Ingoberga and they had five children:

1. Blithide of Cologne (538–603), possibly married to Ansbertus, Gallo-Roman senator
2. Charibert of Hesbaye (d. 636)
3. Clithorice (541–569)
4. Bertha, who married Æthelberht of Kent
5. Chlothar (542)

However:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charibert_of_Hesbaye

Charibert de Haspengau (555–636) was a Frankish nobleman, possibly a comes. The identity of his parents is uncertain, though he is believed by some to be the son of King Charibert I of Paris.[1] Charibert is described as Charibert nobilis in Neustria. No other information is available other than descriptions of his grandchildren (e.g., Lambertus, Bishop of Lyon), who are described as having "high rank and worthy of significant positions" within the palace.

Charibert married Wulfgurd of Hesbaye of unknown parentage. They had four children: ...

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/MEROVINGIANS.htm

3. CHARIBERT ([520]-Paris end 567, bur [Paris, Saint-Germain des Prés]). Gregory of Tours names (in order) Gunthar, Childerich, Charibert, Guntram, Sigibert and a daughter Clothsind as the children of King Clotaire and his wife Ingonde[171]. ...

King Charibert & his first wife had one child:

a) BERTA ([before 560]-[601/before 616], bur Canterbury, Church of St Peter and St Paul). Gregory of Tours records that the daughter of King Charibert and Ingoberg "eventually married a man from Kent and went to live there"[181].

King Charibert & his [second] [wife] had one child:

b) BERTHEFLEDIS (after 561-after 589).

King Charibert & his third wife had one child:

c) son (b and d after 561). Gregory of Tours refers to the unnamed son of King Charibert and Theudechild who was buried immediately after his birth[188].

King Charibert & his --- wife had [one child]:

d) [CHROTIELDIS [Clotilde] ([after 561]-after 590). Gregory of Tours records that Clotilde, who "used to pretend that she was Charibert's daughter" (which suggests doubt about the correctness of her assertion), led a revolt in the convent of Sainte-Croix in Poitiers, together with Basina daughter of King Chilperich, against abbess Leubovera[189]. She was excommunicated for involvement in political intrigue, but accepted back at her convent. If Chrotieldis was the daughter of King Charibert, no indication has been found concerning the identity of her mother.]

Sharon Elizabeth Richards - is there "another" Charibert? Because I read this as a straight up disconnect from parents.

All -

Any objections? This has been been pending since 2018.

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKSMaiordomi.htm#_Toc284006017

Three brothers, parents not identified:

1. CHRODBERT [Robert] [I] . The Vita Lantberti names "Hrotbertus ac Haltbertus" as "avunculi" of "Lambertus vir…nobilissimi generis prosapia ortus", specifying that "Hrotbertus" was "summus palatii referendarius"[513]. Referendarius of King Dagobert I 8 Apr 630. Anulus of King Clotaire III. According to Europäische Stammtafeln[514], Chrodbert [I] and his brothers were sons of "Charibert nobilis in Neustria †635". No reference has been found to this person in any of the primary sources so far consulted and it has been decided to omit him until a positive identification can be made. m ---. The name of Chrodbert’s wife is not known. Chrodbert [I] & his wife had one child:

a) ANGADRISMA . The Vita Ansberti names "Hrotbertus…ex stirpe proditus et gerulus…anuli regis Chlotharii" as father of "religiosissimam ac nobilissimam Angadrismam", clarifying in a later passage that "Hrotbertus et frater eius Haltbertus" were "avunculi sancti patris Lantberti"[515].

2. HALTBERT . The Vita Lantberti names "Hrotbertus ac Haltbertus" as "avunculi" of "Lambertus vir…nobilissimi generis prosapia ortus"[516].

3. ERLEBERT . The Vita Lantberti names "Erlebertus editus territorio Tarvennico" as father of "Lambertus vir…nobilissimi generis prosapia ortus"[517]. m ---. The name of Erlebert’s wife is not known. Erlebert & his wife had one child:

a) LAMBERT . The Vita Lantberti names "Erlebertus editus territorio Tarvennico" as father of "Lambertus vir…nobilissimi generis prosapia ortus"[518]. Abbot of Fontanelle. Bishop of Lyon.

(Are these profiles on Geni?)

Lambert I

Curator Note (5/29/2018):

Some sources have Lambert I as the brother of Chrodobertus I, son of Charibert.
Europäische Stammtafeln says he was son of Robert I.

Angadrisma shown as daughter of "Robert l" (display name) Robert I (Chruodbert I)

This is the same profile as Charibert of Neustria but with the more current theory of his origins.

• the "of Neustria" profile shows too many children / children in the wrong place, perhaps
• the "Robert l" profile shows a speculative? parent of the 3 brothers, Chrotbert de Therouanne

Cross reference discussion:

https://www.geni.com/discussions/273654?msg=1672328
Charibert of Neustria - Charibert of Neustriaborn between 555 and 567 died after 636

Colin Henshaw wrote:

Wikipedia states that: "The identity of his parents is uncertain, though he is believed by some to be the son of King Charibert I of Paris."

Is there any more provenance that King Charibert I of Paris is the father of Charibert of Neustria. The given names are the same, si it's a possibility, however, are we justified in including him in the lineage of such flimsy evidence?

Private User wrote:

MedLands has CHARIBERT King of the Franks, but no son of the same name. Four wives, three daughters (Berta, Berthefledis, and Clotilde) and one son who died in infancy, name, if any , not recorded.

As to Charibert of Neustria, there is only this: "According to Europäische Stammtafeln[514], Chrodbert [I] and his brothers were sons of "Charibert nobilis in Neustria †635". No reference has been found to this person in any of the primary sources so far consulted and it has been decided to omit him until a positive identification can be made." https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKSMaiordomi.htm

NOTE: Europäische Stammtafeln is an extensive compilation of European family trees, and as such as (un)reliable as any other family trees.

When in doubt, always check NedLands https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CONTENTS.htm

Colin Henshaw
12/24/2023 at 2:38 PM

Seems there is no conclusive evidence that @Charibert of Neustria is the son of @Charibert, King of the Franks. I have seen this lineage on geni.com by various circuitous routes. Is it justified to keep the suggestion that @Charibert of Neustria is the son of @Charibert, King of the Franks, or should it be deleted? Lineages should be based on incontrovertible evidence.

Yes, Gregory of Tours is the contemporary chronicler.

..He was the third son [Bishop Gregory of Tours (536 – 597) lists him as the third son[2]], of the King of the Salian Franks of the Merovingian dynasty, Clotaire and, again according to Gregory of Tours, of his third wife, Ingonda, whose ancestry is unknown[2].

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_of_Tours

Book 4 (548–575) Book Four continues from when the two remaining sons of Clovis die: Childebert in 558 and Clothar in 561. The last years of Clothar's life see the entire realm of the Franks ruled by him. At the time of his demise in 561 (as under Clovis before him), the kingdom is divided equally between four sons of Clothar: Charibert I, Sigebert I, Guntram, and Chilperic I; they quarrel for control of the entire realm. A truce between them is maintained until after the death of Charibert I in 567. Clothar's remaining sons fight for the supremacy, with Sigibert showing the strongest military force. Book Four ends with the killing of Sigbert in 575, leaving Chilperic as the dominant king. Gregory of Tours blames Fredegund, the wife of Chilperic, for the assassination. Fredegund, he says, had long held a grudge against Sigibert and his wife Brunhilda.

---

The History of the Franks by Gregory of Tours is an historical record of great importance.[23] It is a central source for early Frankish history, representing the period of transition from late Roman antiquity to early Medieval times in a nascent Europe. It is believed to be the only reliable source of information to describe the emerging military and political power of the Franks in one kingdom.[24]

This is interesting.

Charibert I and the Episcopal Leadership of the Kingdom of Paris (561–567)
Gregory I. Halfond
Viator 2012 43:2, 1-28
https://doi.org/10.1484/J.VIATOR.1.102703

Abstract

This study examines the episcopal support for the Merovingian king Charibert I (r. 561–567). In his spare portrait of Charibert in the Decem Libri Historiarum, Bishop Gregory of Tours condemned the king as a scourge of the Gallo-Frankish Church and its bishops. In contrast, this study argues that Charibert, similar to his better known brothers, worked cooperatively with the leading bishops of his regnum, and was respectful of their political influence and spiritual authority. It is suggested that relations between the king and these prelates only deteriorated in the final months of Charibert’s life due to the king’s refusal to follow their advice and abandon his fourth wife, a former nun. This decision, more than any other action taken by Charibert during his reign, irrevocably tarnished his posthumous reputation.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Charibert-I

Charibert I (died 567, Paris) was a Merovingian king of the Franks, the eldest son of Chlotar I and Ingund. He shared in the partition of the Frankish kingdom that followed his father’s death, receiving the old kingdom of Childebert I, with its capital at Paris. Eloquent and learned in the law, he was yet loose-living. At his death his brothers Guntram, Sigebert I, and Chilperic I shared his realm between them; a tripartite division of the lands north of the Loire thenceforth remained normal, the areas concerned being the east (Austrasia), the west (the future Neustria), and Burgundy. His daughter Bertha married King Aethelberht of Kent.

If the tradition was for the sons to share an inheritance, how is that the supposed son Charibert of Hesbaye (d. 636) had no inheritance, and Charibert l's brothers received his lands?

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Neustria-20

Charibert "Charibertus, Nobilis" von Neustria formerly Neustria
Born about 0590 in Kingdom of Neustria, France
Son of [father unknown] and [mother unknown]
[sibling%28s%29 unknown]
Husband of Wulfgurd Paris — married [date unknown] [location unknown]
Father of Chrodobertus Neustria
Died about 0636 at about age 46 in Kingdom of Neustria, France

Supposed parents

As mentioned above, Charibert if he existed is the end of the line ancestor of the Capetian dynasty. However this hasn't prevented many online genealogies from proposing a father or parents, none of which have any valid sources and all are highly unlikely.

Some of the most frequently seen include;

1. Tassilo I (Tassilon) of Bavaria
2. Clothar I (also Chlothachar or Clotaire), King of the Franks, and his wife/mistress Ingundis (Ingonde). Although they did have a son Charibert I, King of the Franks (born circa 517, died 567),[6] there is no record of another son with the same name, and Charibert I is obviously from a slightly earlier time period.
3. Clothar II, King of the Franks, is also sometimes mentioned as his father, probably because he also had a son Charibert, who succeeded as Charibert II, KIng of the Franks in Aquitaine from 629 but died in 631 or 632 probably still in his early teens.[7] Although he is in the right time period, apart from the name there is nothing else to connect him with Charibert, nobilis de Neustrie.

Wikitree citations:

1. Cawley, Charles, 'Franks, Merovingian Nobility: Chapter 4G Merovingian Counts, 7th Century' version 3.0, 30 May 2014, in Medieval Lands: A prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families (http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKSMaiordomi.htm#_Toc359686226 : accessed 19 April 2015) .
2. Gilleard, Chris, 'Old age in the Dark Ages: the status of old age during the early Middle Ages, Ageing and Society, vol 29, pp. 1065-1084, 2009. doi:10.1017/S0144686X09008630. P. 1067
3. Schwennicke, Detlev, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der europäischen Staaten. Band II: Die außerdeutschen Staaten, 1976, Tafel 10.
4. Settipani, Christian & Van Kerrebrouck, Patrick, Nouvelle histoire genealogique de l'auguste Maison de France: La préhistoire des Capétiens 481-987; Villeneuve d'Ascq, 1993. p. 73-74; p. 99
5. Stuart, Roderick W., Royalty for Commoners: The complete known lineage of John of Gaunt, son of Edward III, King of England and Queen Philippa, 2nd ed.; Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company, 1992. line 169, p. 126; many online genealogies.

Erica - suggested CN. Please take over as Curator

CHARIBERT, King of the Franks (c520-567)
s/o Clotaire & Ingonde
x (repud.) INGOLBERGA

• BERTA

xx>561 MEROFLEDIS

• BERTHEFLEDIS

xxxTHEODECHILDIS

• son (-young)

xxxx MARCOVEFA (sister-in-law)

• CHROTIELDIS (mother unknown)

I cut the relationship as father to Charibert of Neustria Well spotted Sharon Richards. Well researched Erica. Please Curate - I'm just jumping in to make sure your work here is locked in.

Thank you.

Continuing cleanup.

Who was the father (if any) of Adalbert de Neustrie

Which profile URL?