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Magnus Maximus, Western Roman Emperor is (NOT) your 45th great grandfather.

Started by Erica Howton on Tuesday, August 13, 2024
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Magnus Maximus, Western Roman Emperor

Private User

Anyone else

Can you help correct?

tagging Steven Mitchell Ferry

Dear Erica,
Can you give an exact link?
Best regards egon

https://www.geni.com/path/Erica-Howton+is+related+to+Magnus-Maximus-Western-Roman-Emperor?from=363677820350011581&path_type=blood&to=5365308074870051638

I'm not going to vet the Welsh side.

Here is where Wales meets England:

Elizabeth (Vaughan) Mallory (his mother) → Richard Vaughan, Bishop of London (her father) → Catrin ferch Gruffudd (his mother

Richard Vaughan, Bishop of London

Gateway to America ancestor is Capt. Roger Mallory

Egon, your path looks appropriate. You are Wales > Mercia > Anglo Saxons > Franks > Swabians (etc.).

So I'm at a loss, because Elizabeth Mallory looks OK.

http://www.wargs.com/family/mallory.html

Rev. Thomas Mallory, D.D., b. ca. 1566, d. at the Deanery House, Chester 3 Apr. 1644, and is buried in the Quire of the Cathedral there; m. Elizabeth Vaughan, living 23 July 1661 (the date of the Will of her son Philip), possibly the "Mrs. Elizabeth Mallory" who was buried in the Chancel of Northenden Church, Northenden, Cheshire, 12 June 1665; a daughter of Right Rev. Richard Vaughan, Bishop of London, by his wife Jane Bower. ...

Elizabeth Mallory

Erica Howton What is the question/issue here?

To meet the general understanding of Descents from Antiquity, I should not be the direct descendant of anyone born in the year 340 as Magnus Maximus, Western Roman Emperor was. The descent is through Wales > England lines.

See the front page of https://www.geni.com/projects/Descents-from-Antiquity/12283

There are no proven descents from the ancient world. This cannot be emphasized enough.

Egon (above) shows a realistic sideways path. So, I should also - any American with English descent.

Erica Howton

Should we start separate discussion for each one we find a connection too. I saw 80 plus in the project fo Antiquity and looked at a few but not all. I found four more that have lines as "Grandparent." Is the goal to clean them up?

Hmmm. The page Erica links to doesn't mention the Welsh genealogies.

I would love to disconnect problematic lines, but I don't think they all are problematic.

(I already disconnected the Welsh gods and goddesses and King Arthur).

My "general" feeling is that if the line to an American immigrant goes through England back to Wales before year 800, it's wrong. I do not have enough knowledge of Wales > America genealogies to be able to say the same thing, however. And, I presume Welsh genealogies in Wales can indeed prove to say Magnus Maximus.

Is there a generalization we can make about it for Americans?

I probably should have used the "testing for fake lines" project?

https://www.geni.com/projects/Testing-for-Fake-Medieval-and-Ancient-Lines/48078

But no, I'm not after a general cleanup. It may be that the DFA front page needs updating. I hadn't looked at Maximus before, and my "proven gateway" is English.

We've uncovered an interesting problem!

There was certainly movement from Wales to England, mostly into the bordering counties, but i would also be wary of Welsh immigration through England.

However, many English lines go back into ancient Wales, on account of nobility marrying each other and then second and younger sons.

My line to Magnus Maximus goes through Elizabeth Mallory, because her father was born in awales and became Bishop of London.

On the other hand, I am no longer, in Geni reality, descended from Beli Mawr the sun god, so there’s that.

So, do we need to test whether this is true?

Magnus Maximus, Western Roman Emperor is Richard Vaughan, Bishop of London's 31st great grandfather. [https://www.geni.com/path/Richard-Vaughan-Bishop-of-London+is+related+to+Magnus-Maximus-Western-Roman-Emperor?from=6000000003827346300&path_type=blood&to=5365308074870051638 path}

Curator note: Parents unknown. Virtually every account of the man whom the Welsh called Maxen Wledig identifies him as Magnus Maximus. However, there are grave chronological problems. See below.

The Geni profile seems fine, and I think you guys have been careful not to let an unvetted pedigree slip through?

Magnus Maximus, Western Roman Emperor is your 45th great grandfather.
You → Karen Margaret Anderson (your mother) → Carrie Pearl Cashin (her mother) → Arthur Cashin (her father) → Kathryn Dexter Cashin (his mother) → Eunice F Smith (her mother) → Joshua Gross (her father) → Joseph Gross, Jr. (his father) → Joseph Gross, I (his father) → Abigail Gross (his mother) → Mary Treat (her mother) → Mary Larkin (Walker) (her mother) → Hannah Crowfoot (her mother) → Thomas Merrick (her father) → Rev. John Merrick (his father) → Syr William Meyrick (his father) → Rev. John Meyrick (his father) → Margaret verch Rowland (his mother) → Annes ferch Dafydd Salop (her mother) → Dafydd Salop ap Gruffudd (her father) → Gruffudd ap Iorwerth Ddu (his father) → Iowerth Ddu ap Madog (his father) → Madog ap Maredudd (his father) → Maredudd ap Madog (his father) → Madog ap Gruffydd Maelor, Lord Bromfield (his father) → Gruffudd Maelor ap Madog, Lord of Bromfield (his father) → Madog ap Maredudd, Brenin Powys (his father) → Maredudd ap Bleddyn, Brenin Powys (his father) → Bleddyn ap Cynfyn, Brenin Powys (his father) → Angharad verch Maredudd (his mother) → Maredudd ab Owain, King of Deheubarth (her father) → Angharad verch Llewelyn (his mother) → N.N. ferch Merfyn (her mother) → Merfyn ap Rhodri Mawr (her father) → Rhodri the Great, king of the Britons (his father) → Merfyn Frych ap Gwriad (his father) → Gwriad ap Elidir (his father) → Elidir ap Sandde (his father) → Sandde ap Alcwn (his father) → Alcwn ap Tegid (his father) → Tegid ap Gwair (his father) → Gwair ap Dwg (his father) → Dwg ap Llywarch Hen (his father) → Llywarch Hen ab Elidir (his father) → Saint Gwladys, Princess of Brycheiniog Wales, Queen-Consort of Gwynllwg Wales (his mother) → Prawst verch Tudwal (her mother) → Gratiana ferch Maxen Wledig (her mother) → Magnus Maximus, Western Roman Emperor (her father)

Another similar line, if it helps: Owain Gwynedd ap Gruffydd, King of Gwynedd is your 24th great grandfather.
You → Karen Margaret Anderson (your mother) → Carrie Pearl Cashin (her mother) → Arthur Cashin (her father) → Kathryn Dexter Cashin (his mother) → Eunice F Smith (her mother) → Joshua Gross (her father) → Joseph Gross, Jr. (his father) → Joseph Gross, I (his father) → Abigail Gross (his mother) → Mary Treat (her mother) → Mary Larkin (Walker) (her mother) → Hannah Crowfoot (her mother) → Thomas Merrick (her father) → Rev. John Merrick (his father) → Syr William Meyrick (his father) → Rev. John Meyrick (his father) → Margaret verch Rowland (his mother) → Annes ferch Dafydd Salop (her mother) → Dafydd Salop ap Gruffudd (her father) → Gruffudd ap Iorwerth Ddu (his father) → Iowerth Ddu ap Madog (his father) → Madog ap Maredudd (his father) → Maredudd ap Madog (his father) → Madog ap Gruffydd Maelor, Lord Bromfield (his father) → Angharad verch Owain Gwynedd (his mother) → Owain Gwynedd ap Gruffydd, King of Gwynedd (her father)

Owain Gwynedd ap Gruffydd, King of Gwynedd

My father's mother to Magnus Maximus:

Clara Amelia Anderson is connected to Magnus Maximus, Western Roman Emperor.
Shortest blood relationship
Magnus Maximus, Western Roman Emperor is Clara Amelia Anderson's 44th great grandfather.
Clara Amelia Anderson → Horace Clark Mitchell (her father) → Amelia Tryphena Piper (Mitchell) (his mother) → Isaac Milton Dodge, IV (her father) → Lydia Dodge (his mother) → Ruth Frink (her mother) → Ruth Hibbard (her mother) → Ruth Wheelock (her mother) → Deacon Christopher Huntington, II (her father) → Christopher Huntington (his father) → Margaret Huntington (his mother) → Christopher Baret (her father) → William Barrett, of Westhall (his father) → Sir William Gregory Barrett, Sr. (his father) → Sir Lord John Barrett (his father) → Lord Gregory FitzJohn de Barrett IV (his father) → Lady Elizabeth Barrett (his mother) → Margaret de Vere de Naunton - Drury (her mother) → Thomas de Vere De Naunton (her father) → Ellen De Vere (his mother) → Margaret Mortimer (her mother) → Roger Mortimer, 1st Baron Mortimer (her father) → Gwladys Ddu verch Llewelyn (his mother) → Llewelyn "The Great" ap Iorwerth, King of Gwynedd, Prince of Wales (her father) → Margred verch Madog, of Powys (his mother) → Madog ap Maredudd, Brenin Powys (her father) → Maredudd ap Bleddyn, Brenin Powys (his father) → Bleddyn ap Cynfyn, Brenin Powys (his father) → Angharad verch Maredudd (his mother) → Maredudd ab Owain, King of Deheubarth (her father) → Angharad verch Llewelyn (his mother) → N.N. ferch Merfyn (her mother) → Merfyn ap Rhodri Mawr (her father) → Rhodri the Great, king of the Britons (his father) → Merfyn Frych ap Gwriad (his father) → Gwriad ap Elidir (his father) → Elidir ap Sandde (his father) → Sandde ap Alcwn (his father) → Alcwn ap Tegid (his father) → Tegid ap Gwair (his father) → Gwair ap Dwg (his father) → Dwg ap Llywarch Hen (his father) → Llywarch Hen ab Elidir (his father) → Saint Gwladys, Princess of Brycheiniog Wales, Queen-Consort of Gwynllwg Wales (his mother) → Prawst verch Tudwal (her mother) → Gratiana ferch Maxen Wledig (her mother) → Magnus Maximus, Western Roman Emperor (her father)

Wait so our descent from Magnus Maximus is air tight Erica from great king of Britons

He was a Spaniard not a Roman and was thought to be a Peasant before he moved up the ranks. But golly his history so similar to the story of Maximus fictional character in the movie the Gladiator but he wasn't Roman though. Hope it's air tight that's a big project whew!

Lol thought at first he was Maximus of the movie and found out Maximus in the movie based off another man that enjoyed a long career was a general and lived to be old.

Here's my pedigree from my gateway ancestor to Maximus

Magnus Maximus, Western Roman Emperor is Agnes Edwards' 36th great grandfather!
Agnes Edwards → Elizabeth Harris (her mother) → Henry Collamore (her father) → Margery Collamore (his mother) → Wilmot Poyntz (her mother) → William Poyntz (her father) → Sir Humphrey Poyntz, of Elkstone, Kt. (his father) → Sir Nicholas Poyntz, Lord of Elkstone (his father) → Robert Poyntz (his father) → Elizabeth de Poyntz (Clanvowe) (his mother) → Sir Philip Clanvowe (her father) → Gwilym ap Hywel (his father) → Hywel ap Meurig (his father) → Meurig ap Philip (his father) → Philip ap Rhys Gryg (his father) → Rhys Gryg ap Rhys (his father) → Rhys ap Gruffudd, Prince of South Wales (his father) → Gruffydd ap Rhys (his father) → Gwladys verch Rhiwallon, Queen of Deheubarth (his mother) → Rhiwallon ap Cynfyn, Prince of Powys (her father) → Angharad verch Maredudd (his mother) → Maredudd ab Owain, King of Deheubarth (her father) → Angharad verch Llewelyn (his mother) → N.N. ferch Merfyn (her mother) → Merfyn ap Rhodri Mawr (her father) → Rhodri the Great, king of the Britons (his father) → Merfyn Frych ap Gwriad (his father) → Gwriad ap Elidir (his father) → Elidir ap Sandde (his father) → Sandde ap Alcwn (his father) → Alcwn ap Tegid (his father) → Tegid ap Gwair (his father) → Gwair ap Dwg (his father) → Dwg ap Llywarch Hen (his father) → Llywarch Hen ab Elidir (his father) → Saint Gwladys, Princess of Brycheiniog Wales, Queen-Consort of Gwynllwg Wales (his mother) → Prawst verch Tudwal (her mother) → Gratiana ferch Maxen Wledig (her mother) → Magnus Maximus, Western Roman Emperor (her father)

SInce I can check paths again! Richard Vaughan, Bishop of London is your 6th cousin 14 times removed.
You → Karen Margaret Anderson (your mother) → Carrie Pearl Cashin (her mother) → Arthur Cashin (her father) → Kathryn Dexter Cashin (his mother) → Eunice F Smith (her mother) → Joshua Gross (her father) → Joseph Gross, Jr. (his father) → Joseph Gross, I (his father) → Abigail Gross (his mother) → Mary Treat (her mother) → Mary Larkin (Walker) (her mother) → Hannah Crowfoot (her mother) → Thomas Merrick (her father) → Rev. John Merrick (his father) → Janet verch Ieuan (his mother) → Ieuan ap John (her father) → John ab Ieuan (his father) → Ieuan ap Llewelyn, of Trefeilir (his father) → Mallt verch Cwnws (his mother) → Mallt ferch Gruffudd (her mother) → Angharad ferch Gruffudd (her sister) → Mallt verch Rhys (her daughter) → Margred verch Hywel y Farf (her daughter) → John ap Gruffudd (her son) → Gruffudd ap John (his son) → Catrin ferch Gruffudd (his daughter) → Richard Vaughan, Bishop of London (her son)

I raised the discussions because the Welsh in Wales are not my forte at all, and we are lucky enough to have medieval historians. What I look for are the key points where I "do" have some resources:

- Welsh in England

  • First Welsh to America (very slowly & carefully, as I am no expert and rely on profile citations)

That's where breaks / mixups may be.

The way I find easiest is to use "Share this path". That way I'm seeing the live links on Geni and can walk through for inspection. The text link for someone else doesn't help me as much.

And I highlight the "gateway ancestor." For many of us, Richard Vaughan, Bishop of London, had a daughter Elizabeth, who married a Mallory, whose son went to America. That's a line I know well.

That's why it was so interesting to see Karrie & Annber with different gateways. Can you check those links?

Hi Erica,

This is my Merrick

Rev. John Merrick

Born in Wales, immigrated to Massachusetts.

As seen here on my (shortest) maternal path to Magnus Maximus: https://geni.com/01bCPX

The paternal path is what Anne mentioned--nobility, albeit reaching very far back:

Roger Mortimer, 1st Baron Mortimer was born in Wales.

The profiles leading up to him could be better sourced, but are managed by a curator.

I have yet another path--blame all of those Mayflower-y types marrying cousins haha! Reuben Lombard Curran is one of my maternal second great grandfathers, the father of the wife of Arthur Cashin in the path I was giving above. Will show both ways.

Magnus Maximus, Western Roman Emperor is Reuben Lombard Curran's 42nd great grandfather.
Reuben Lombard Curran → Sarah (Sally) Pike Curran (his mother) → Deborah Bangs (her mother) → Samuel Hatch (her father) → Abigail Hatch (his mother) → Abigail Brown (her mother) → Sarah Colesworthy (her mother) → Sarah Covell (her mother) → John Bushnell (her father) → Ferris Bushnell (his mother) → Beatrix Quenell (her mother) → Sir Henry Carter (her father) → William “of Watford” Carter (his father) → Lady Margaret Frazier (his mother) → Janet Dunbar (her mother) → Thomas Dunbar, 2nd Earl of Moray (her father) → Marjory Stewart, Princess of Scots (his mother) → Robert II, King of Scots (her father) → Marjorie Bruce, Princess of Scotland (his mother) → Isabella of Mar (her mother) → Elen ferch Llywelyn (her mother) → Llewelyn "The Great" ap Iorwerth, King of Gwynedd, Prince of Wales (her father) → Margred verch Madog, of Powys (his mother) → Madog ap Maredudd, Brenin Powys (her father) → Maredudd ap Bleddyn, Brenin Powys (his father) → Bleddyn ap Cynfyn, Brenin Powys (his father) → Angharad verch Maredudd (his mother) → Maredudd ab Owain, King of Deheubarth (her father) → Angharad verch Llewelyn (his mother) → N.N. ferch Merfyn (her mother) → Merfyn ap Rhodri Mawr (her father) → Rhodri the Great, king of the Britons (his father) → Merfyn Frych ap Gwriad (his father) → Gwriad ap Elidir (his father) → Elidir ap Sandde (his father) → Sandde ap Alcwn (his father) → Alcwn ap Tegid (his father) → Tegid ap Gwair (his father) → Gwair ap Dwg (his father) → Dwg ap Llywarch Hen (his father) → Llywarch Hen ab Elidir (his father) → Saint Gwladys, Princess of Brycheiniog Wales, Queen-Consort of Gwynllwg Wales (his mother) → Prawst verch Tudwal (her mother) → Gratiana ferch Maxen Wledig (her mother) → Magnus Maximus, Western Roman Emperor (her father)

https://geni.com/01bCQT

This is again via nobility, as seen in the text path above.

First person born in Wales is: Elen ferch Lleywelyn

I guess my "Gateway" here is really Sarah "Sally Bangs" Sarah (Sally) Pike Curran

Or her mother Deborah (Hatch) Bangs, as they are in the Silver Books?

I'd define a gateway as "first ancestor to emigrate". If there are errors, they tend to be 1) unproven / debunked parent in England 2) unproven / debunked in the English genealogy

Silver Books would validate descent from the Mayflower passenger. None of whom were Welsh (at least, immediately so) and only the tragic More children with Royal ancestry. And with Thomas More as the scalliwag of the Mayflowers so not actually a desirable link. :) :)

So for this lineage, anyway, Ferris Bushnell looks to be the gateway to look at. Henry Carter is not sourced. The profile for William “of Watford” Carter

Will proved August 30, 1521, buried in Watford Churchyard. (Herts) Mentions daus Alice & Johane, sons Richard, William (two houses & land in St. Stevens, St. Albans) & John (house & land in Rickmansworth) & wife Alice.

So, who's Henry & Joan Carter

Beatrix their daughter is not well sourced (GEDCOM) but she's logical (Horsham in Sussex, same as her mother)

The mother of William “of Watford” Carter is unrealistic. Margaret Carter

Wikitree has no parents for https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Carter-210. Geni has a dead link for John "of Watford" Carter but his locations are logical for William of Watford as son. If he loses the noble wife.

I'm detaching Henry Carter from parents, put him back if you disagree, with sourcing. (Just easier to do it when I see it.)

Right I knew none of the Mayflower passengers were royal save those children, just wasn't clear on "gateway" if you were looking for some type of documentation of immigration or ? I think the lines for Deborah Hatch need some work here as well, but not related to this conversation. Profiles are also not managed by me, so I will have to dig in and try and sort out and start discussions and tag people separately.

Will see what I can find for those mentioned above.

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