
She's identified Private User as 99th gg (shows to me as 100th gg).
The profile was Added by: Private User on May 4, 2023
Aislinn notes that Geni does not support "Biblical" ancestry - Bible genealogies are isolated to their own project Biblical Tree, looked after by curator Shmuel-Aharon Kam (Kahn / שמואל-אהרן קם (קאן
So:
Is this profile a duplicate? Of which existing Geni profile?
If not a duplicate, what evidence supports its genealogy?
Is it truly ancestral to European nobility? If so, where, and with what support?
The biblical profile is Haidir / Qedar / Kedar Ibn Nabi Ismail / Prophet Ismail
linked as father of Aram Ibn Haidir
The link to Spain is through Urraca which has a curator note: Parentage unknown. So, i will detach and lock that.
Oria (Aurea) Bint Ibn Musa Banu Qasi shows as my is your 37th great grandmother.
Testing my path to Haidir / Qedar / Kedar Ibn Nabi Ismail / Prophet Ismail again, i see a link to Europe through Velasquita Sánchez married to Mutarrif ibn Musa, of the Banu Qasi
this one is trickier, as we have some conflicting source information.
< Wikipedia > García Íñiguez of Pamplona
Sancho Garcés, father of Aznar Sánchez de Larraun — the second husband of his cousin Onneca Fortúnez — and probably of Velazquita, who married Mutarrif ibn Musa, of the Banu Qasi.[a]
a. Chronicler Ibn Hayyan says Velasquita was daughter of king García Íñiguez, but al-Udri names her father as Sancho, lord of Pamplona.[10] The latter has been preferred by historians.[9][11] This reference to Sancho as 'lord', along with a reference by Ibn Khaldun to a Sancho, 'governor of Pamplona and chief of the Basques' in 865, and an 867 charter that names 'king' Sancho as son-in-law of Galindo Aznárez I of Aragón, led Antonio Ubieto Arteta to propose that it was Sancho Garcés who ruled in Pamplona in the mid-to-late 860s, during at least part of the period that his brother, Fortún Garcés, was held captive in Córdoba.[12]
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/MOORISH%20SPAIN.htm#_Toc371931142
MUSA ibn Musa, son of MUSA ibn Fortun & his second wife, (-Tudela 26 Sep 862). … Musa had [seven] children by unknown [wives/concubines]: ....
Livio Scremin - if you can help in this testing, it would be much appreciated. it looks like some speculative genealogy has been added on the Spanish side since curator Private User did his work.
It looks like Cawley is using the alternate father for Velasquita, but accepts the marriage.
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NAVARRE.htm#AssonaIniguez
ii) [VELASQUITA Sánchez. Al-Udri records that "Mutarrif ibn Musa" married "Faliskita, hija de Sanyo, señor de Pamplona" and that he brought her to Huesca (which suggests that the marriage should be dated to [870/71] when Mutarif took control of Huesca) and had children by her[76]. The date of her marriage is consistent with Velasquita having been the daughter of Sancho, son of García I Iñíguez [King] of Pamplona, but this is not confirmed beyond all doubt by the passage in Al-Udri. m ([871/72]%29 as his [---] wife, MUTARIF ibn Musa, son of MUSA Ibn Musa & his wife --- (-crucified Córdoba 6 Sep 873).]
So, Velasquita Sánchez is an acceptable 37th great aunt, who shows no spurious Bible connection.
First, it should be noted that: yes, of course Europeans and people of European ancestry descend from the Middle East. We also descend from, at minimum, Africa and Siberia. See https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2014.14456 for a rather readable overview. The question on Geni is just whether we can prove specific lines on paper.
Since the question of Germanic roots of European nobles was raised, I honestly think Geni does a pretty great job with that. Has anyone disconnected the Battenbergs/Mountbattens, or the Scandinavian nobility, or any of the others with Germanic ties? And what are the specifics of the damage? I'm happy to help with those if so.
I'm noticing that for several profiles in that stretch, Ahmad, we have no citations and Geni is the only result that comes up when searching the names. I'll start some conversation threads to see if we can firm up some of those relationships.
Example: https://www.geni.com/discussions/281798
Haidir (Hadad) أدد is William Smith alias Harris' 24th great uncle's 59th great grandfather.
(note: therefore, not a biological ancestor)
The connection is from the Al Andalus Muslim husband + Christian wife:
García I Íñiguez, rey de Pamplona (her father) → Assona Iñiguez (his sister) → Musa Ibn Musa lbn Qasaw, Walí de Tudela, Huesca y Zaragoza (her husband) → Muza Ibn Fortún ibn Qasi, valì de Zaragoza, Arnedo y de Tudela (his father)
Assona Iñiguez is sourced from Medlands and had no children.
So, any detaching from Bible people is in the ancestry of Musa Ibn Musa lbn Qasaw, Walí de Tudela, Huesca y Zaragoza
Haidir (Hadad) أدد is Musa Ibn Musa lbn Qasaw, Walí de Tudela, Huesca y Zaragoza's 59th great grandfather!
There's a comment at Aram Ibn Haidir
Was 'Aram ('Iram) infact a Son of [[Kedar . Kedar .] Keydar (Kedar) bin Isma'il (Ishmael)] or a Son of his Brother [[Hadad (Hadar) . Hadad (Hadar) .] Hadad (Hadar) bin Isma'il (Ishmael)]?
Kedar . shows a son Alyon . closest name, but doesn't really match.
It does look like Hadad (Hadar) = Haidir (Hadar) and Aram is uncertain origins.
From Book of Jasher 25:18, 25.
https://sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/jasher/25.htm
5 And Ishmael took a wife from the land of Egypt, and her name was Ribah, the same is Meribah.
16 And Ribah bare unto Ishmael Nebayoth, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam and their sister Bosmath.
22 ... and the sons of Kedar were Alyon, Kezem, Chamad and Eli.
18 And Ishmael afterward took a wife from the land of Canaan, and her name was Malchuth, and she bare unto him Nishma, Dumah, Masa, Chadad, Tema, Yetur, Naphish and Kedma. ...
25 ... and the sons of Chadad were Azur, Minzar and Ebedmelech
No ARAM.
Where else can we look?
I believe this Haidir / Qedar / Kedar Ibn Nabi Ismail / Prophet Ismail line is not Biblical (whether it is meant to be or not). It no longer is a direct line to Europeans, so it can await Arabian genealogists to supply their source references.
Haidir / Qedar / Kedar Ibn Nabi Ismail / Prophet Ismail
Hi Erica,
yes, he is surely under Prophet Ismail Alaihissalam's lineage, if not mistaken but i am yet to find the books for reference. Wallahua'lam Bisshawab :)
note:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haydar
according to wiki, it is an arabic/ muslim name.
Haydar (Arabic: حيدر), also spelt Hajdar, Hayder, Heidar, Haider, Heydar, Haidr, and other variants, is an Arabic male given name, also used as a surname, meaning "lion".
In Islamic tradition, the name is primarily associated with Ali ibn Abi Talib (first Shia Imam and fourth Rashidun Caliph), the son-in-law and cousin of Muhammad, who was nicknamed "Haydar".[1]
The variants Hyder and Hyderi (Urdu: حیدری) are Urdu variants used predominantly by Muslims in South Asia.
according to indonesian wiki:
https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismail
these are the children of Nabi Ismail Alaihissalam:
Keturunan
Nebayot/Nabit
Kedar/Qaidzar
Adbeel
Mibsam
Misyma
Mahalat/Basmat (perempuan)
Duma
Masa
Hadad
Tema
Yetur
Nafish
Kedma
and ive found this too:
Hadad (Hadar) .
also, according to wiki of bani ismail (ismail tribe/clan):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmaelites
Nebaioth
Kedar
Adbeel
Mibsam
Mishma
Dumah
Massa
Hadar
Tema
Jetur
Naphish
Kedemah
Private User - Some of your claims are historically inaccurate.
The majority of the genetic ancestry of Nordic and Germanic people does not come from the region currently known as Iran or Iraq! The primary ancestors of Northern European and Germanic peoples are derived from Eastern and Central European hunter-gatherers, Anatolian farmers, and the Yamnaya culture, which originated in the steppes of southern Russia and Ukraine. When the ice sheets began to retreat around 12,000–10,000 years ago, these hunter-gatherers started moving northward, following the edge of the retreating ice and in pursuit of hunting opportunities.
The Yamnaya migration brought with it the Proto-Indo-European languages, from which the Germanic languages later developed. there are also significant populations of Finno-Ugric peoples, such as the Finns, Estonians, and Sami. These groups have distinct linguistic and genetic histories that differ from the Indo-European populations. Finno-Ugric languages belong to the Uralic language family, and their ancestors arrived in Northern Europe thousands of years ago, before and around the Indo-European migrations.
The term "Caucasian" is outdated and inaccurate when referring to population groups. Historically, "Caucasian" was used to describe people classified as belonging to the "white race," but this concept has been discarded in modern science as it is not based on genetic or biological reality and is part of an outdated racial classification system.
"Arab" is a linguistic and cultural term used to describe people who speak Arabic or have an Arab cultural background. It is not solely an American generalization but a well-established term in Middle Eastern studies and beyond. However, it is important to recognize the diversity within the region and avoid overly broad generalizations -This opening statement at this discussion, in my opinion, is a bit thoughtlessly phrased.
In Geni, there is a significant lack of sources in profiles for Arab and muslim ancestors, and many profiles have been added in a way that leads directly to the tree creator themselves, which is problematic. It is not in line with Geni's guidelines to accept profiles as "generation 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15" etc. without any information on who these individuals were. For the credibility of Geni family trees, sources are the most important factor, many of us would like to help but there is a shortage of tree creators who are proficient in the Arabic language.
Private User
Actually, the term 'Caucasian' was historically used in racial classifications to refer to the so-called 'white race,' not just people from the Caucasus region. Although originally associated with the Caucasus, it was broadly applied to include people of European descent. This broad use is now considered outdated and inaccurate, as most 'white' people don't have origins in the Caucasus. However, it's still used in the U.S., even though it’s an outdated label that inaccurately groups people based on flawed racial classifications.
Earlier, the term 'Aryan' referred to a group of people who spoke Indo-European languages and lived in areas now known as Iran and Northern India. The word 'Aryan' comes from the Sanskrit word 'ārya,' meaning 'noble' or 'respected.' It originally described early peoples and cultures of India and Iran. Later, the term was used more broadly to refer to Indo-European-speaking peoples, but it had nothing to do with the modern concept of a 'white race.' The Nazis later co-opted the term to promote a racist ideology, falsely using it to describe a 'superior' white race, which is historically and linguistically incorrect.
Thankfully, the US Census - a major stop for genealogy here - does not use a "Caucasian" designation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Americans
U.S. census definition
The term "white American" can encompass many different ethnic groups. Although the United States census purports to reflect a social definition of race, the social dimensions of race are more complex than Census criteria. The 2000 U.S. census states that racial categories "generally reflect a social definition of race recognized in this country. They do not conform to any biological, anthropological or genetic criteria."[26]
You'll note that census has a "race" classification, but Geni has only an "ethnicity" field. In the USA, as a majority immigrant population, sometime in the last 400 odd years, we want to know where our ancestors came from.
We see all kinds of "Generation Number based" pedigrees in Geni, it is the norm in books. Gradually we've managed to replace many with actual source data (vital records etc.). We only introduced "add a field," a good place to preserve Reference numbers, including Generation Count, in 2016, and so many profiles precede that date.
We have active Indonesian, Malaysian, and Bruneians working on their Geni trees. Some are working with classic Arabian pedigrees as well, and we face the confusion of language / names that we did in the medieval European tree before we worked on it. So, lets give them time, encouragement and support.
And recruit more Arabic speakers.
And the best way those of us with European backgrounds might be able to help is in medieval Spain; specifically, the Al Andalus historic era and geography.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus
Al-Andalus[a] (Arabic: الأَنْدَلُس) was the Muslim-ruled area of the Iberian Peninsula. The term is used by modern historians for the former Islamic states in modern-day Gibraltar, Portugal, Spain, and Southern France. The name describes the different Muslim[1][2] states that controlled these territories at various times between 711 and 1492.
There are of course Europeans in south East Asia in more modern times, but they are likely to.be more specific genealogies than the ones Aisllinn may have found, browing her tree connections.
While I enjoy the subject matter of our conversation I don't wish to risk going too far off topic, so I'll only state my following opinions and leave it at that.
1. We mostly agree on the difference in definitions of the terminology, Caucasian and Aryan. I however, having done much research on the subject, will always insist without further comment that Aryan did mean "white" (in addition to "noble and superior") to the originators of that particular term.
(Note that I'm only saying it meant that to the originators of the term, themselves. In my **personal opinion** "Aryan" is/was a grandiose, narcissistic, even phony, self-label. For reasons I'd rather not get into here.)
2. With respect to the definition of Caucasian (with thanks to Erica for clarifying the fact that the US does NOT use that term on censuses, etc.) -- early genetic anthropologists routinely divided "Caucasian" into three distinct subcategories, based on specific differences among them:
1. Dinaric (Mediterranean, Southern peninsular European, North/East African, Arabic),
2. Alpine (French, Swiss, etc. people living in the mountainous interior and river basins of Europe), and
3. Nordic (Scandinavian or Atlantean i.e. North European and Atlantic Coastal).
And then there were the Basque, Celtic, Gaul, Germanic and Slavic tribes, sort of corralled, more or less, as much as possible, within the three broad 'European' categories.
Alpine thought by some to have been a blend of Dinaric and Nordic, furthermore.
Most of what I stated above about the 'history of race classification' is highly debatable and certainly outdated, to be taken with grains of salt; and as such I'm not sitting here with text books open for verification. This is just a generalized summary based solely on my fuzzy memory, so if you disagree or wish to correct or add anything, please allow me to simply acknowledge it in advance and move on. I'm not here to prove outdated theories, just adding my own two cents to the conversation.
Because as Erica rightly pointed out, it is an incredibly complicated subject.
And I should add: with aspects and theories that may be a bit too 'out there' and/or controversial for a Geni forum.
And as Saga implied, modern population genetics has already made significant progress in our understanding of human origins, although in my opinion it has yet only barely scratched the surface and is subject to a considerable degree of bias.
Historical context of course is everything, but the term "Aryan", whatever it may have meant to 19th century eugenicists, was entirely corrupted by Nazism. I'm not big on 'political correctness" actually; I'd rather do "historical correctness." But I can't read the word without shuddering. Sorry!
When my mother was in college she had her "skull type" analyzed by a physical anthropologist. Seems to match her DNA test results many years later. But, she's much less "various ancestry" than I am.