I was curious why test his toe, and not a tooth, etc so searched and it seems other parts of the skeleton believed to be Bruce are in different collections. (So could in theory, also be tested to compare?) Rather strange? Link below also gives a bit more info as to why this is believed to be him--i.e. his instruction to remove his heart upon death corresponding with saw marks on the breastbone.

http://www.futuremuseum.co.uk/collections/people/lives-in-key-perio...

It is all quite unusual. Re-reading, I also wonder if there is any way to determine if the remains held did in fact have leprosy, and then anything existing in more private royal records of any sort to confirm or deny that Robert the Bruce may have?

Really odd to consider bits of remains just handed off to random friends from an archeological site, but I guess stranger things have happened in the past?

Were Robert the Bruce's bones tested? He could be a haplo E according to the Ben Franklin essay of 1751

According to Benjamin Franklin’s Essay of 1751:

" And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted, who with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth.”

........it would appear that the term White in Benjamin Franklin's eyes was only reserved for people of Anglo-Saxon blood which did not include Irish, Welsh, Scots or pretty much any other groups in Europe.

Wilton, it is very clear that the Anglo-Saxons that Benjamin Franklin discusses in his Essay of 1751 was the Anglo-Saxons of England.

I have provided clear and concise evidence to support the assertions that I have made, you have not presented any evidence to support your various assertions.

You appear to be pretending to have already proven the multiple claims you have made without having done so. Instead, you have attempted to deflect this fact by implying that I should disprove your claims, with is a fallacy on your part, the burden is proof is on you to support your various assertions.

Once more Peter- I have replied across social media. Amber Collins has set up a separate DNA chat - we can continue there. Given the fact that 90 percent of the global sources have been hidden or destroyed God has blessed us as a proud black Hebrew people with new sources. Continue in that forum.

Wilton, exactly how do you know these sources have been hidden or destroyed? It is important to keep in mind that the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

Hi Dr Wilton McDonald
I am new to all this so finding it a bit hard to keep up and read as much as I can.
I know nothing really on the subject of Robert the Bruce but learning I hope from here.
Could I ask without sounding rather dumb (LOL) if your last comment means a person called Somerled is a black man and I am so sorry but briefly can you tell me who he is please.
Sometimes while reading all the messages it can get complicated to put one and one together.
It really does not matter if you do not wish to answer my question, anyone can for that matter I presume.
My last question is could Robert the Bruce have been in actual fact a black man?
Just thought I would add that to try and clarify that at least if anyone really knows.
Kind regards
Lori

Wilton, prior to discussing the assertions you have made in your last couple of posts, it would be prudent for you to provide EVIDENCE to support your claim that you are indeed a direct paternal descendant of the Clan Donald Chiefly line.

The connection you have made is to James MacDonald, which seems unlikely as the Clan Donald Volume 3 lists James as “died unmarried in Jamaica.” Your tree doesn’t present any sort of documentation that supports your claim. And you have failed to provide any evidence to support your claim of descending paternally from the Clan Donald Chiefly line.

To be CLEAR Wilton, the evidence that you have not provided is a documented paper. Until you are able to provide this information is there any value in furthering the discussion.

Failure to provide this BASIC requirement (which is the backbone of genealogical study) means that all the writing you have produced beyond your currently BROKEN LINK (due to lack of actual DOCUMENTATION) is unfortunatley ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS as it would not be your actual paternal line.

Perhaps you can provide the documention linking your direct paternal line to James MacDonald listed in Clan Donald Volume 3 page 517. Only this will allow the conversation pertaining to your assertions regarding to your direct paternal line to continue.

I make two comment on your last somewhat lengthly reply (as they pertain to your assertion of be a direct paternal descendant of James MacDonald listed in Clan Donald Volume 3 page 517):

1. "It would make no sense for someone to move to Jamaica and not get married AND have children" is the worst form of conjecture.

2. Extrapolating based on your own assumptions about the habits of migrants to Jamaica in the 1800s - and then treating those assumptions as facts just for the sake of patching the glaring holes in your own family tree - is genealogical fraud.

Wilton, you have stated that "Were Robert the Bruce's bones tested? He could be a haplo E according to the Ben Franklin essay of 1751”. Reading the 1751 Essay of Benjamin Franklin, I would have to say that this is not any sort of support for Rober the Bruce being Haplogroup E nor any other Haplogroup.

Do you have any evidence that supports that Robert Bruce was Haplogroup E or any other Y DNA Haplogroup?

Peter talk to me in the DNA chat. Why are you so stubborn ?

Wilton, this Discussion Group is titled "Haplogroups of People from History on GENI - ONGOING RESEARCH”. I am fairly certain that the person of Robert the Bruce falls within the realm of this discussion. And this would also apply to the person of Somerled and the Kings of the IIsles (in what is now Scotland).

If if you do not wish to participate in this discussion, the choice is totally yours to make.

Peter when it comes to Haplo Rs- i should say my wife's people in Poland / Ukraine, i have affection for them. There is no bitterness and i have done extensive DNA testing in over 80 DNA cases - i have my own lab and have done remarkable things like taking DNA samples from all over the globe and have grown a family tree over 620,000 members with over 11,000 active members participating and over 3 million records. Based on over 3 years of research and in part at Harvard- and listening to the words of the senior DNA admin who is a haplo R himself there are a ton of problems for you to prove your R line to Somerled on paper or via genetic matching . It's a bridge to nowhere since your alleged history of the Rs- is based on the fake/ forged Anglo Saxon Chronicles. When i mention the Bible- all 80 books folk like Sharon start to point fingers. Well that 80 book Bible explains race/ Nephillip/ origin of black man- all traced back to manuscripts found 2000 years ago in the caves of Qumrun. All of Sharon's history will flow back to the Chronicles based on documents not even equivalent to toilet paper and yet they are given the reverence over the Bible. If i am mistaken then where do you get your history from? What are the primary sources of your R and H history which is all Caucasus linked history in modern day Turkey and Uzbekistan? Dont ask me to try to connect to your family of Rs. Your family of Rs do not have any real connection to Scotland , Somerled, Bruce and all the figures you mention - it is truly an exercise in futility. Provide your primary sources to debunk what i am saying and i shall be the first to concede. I know you cant because the senior DNA admin who i referenced is much much much smarter and experienced than you are and as a project R admin - he is lost and calls the records which Sharon and others reverence as IFFY. And i must take IFFY records and go quietly into the night as a good black laddie who knows his place. Right ? There are many black people behind me- my Facebook page is visited by hundreds each day- Twitter is about to go supernova - there are friends i have known from all my 10 universities mostly ivy league who support me and given the multiplier effect- hundreds of thousands will be reached and we all will be forced to change our distorted and whitewashed history of the planet.

XXXXX
Copy of email with official UK peerage group:
From: darryl@thepeerage <darryl@thepeerage.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2020 3:30 AM
To: dr Wilton McDonald II - Gmail <wilton.mcdonald2001@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Descendant of Donald Grumach MacDonald of Capstill
I don’t have any further info on his descendants.
Regards
Darryl Lundy
—————————————
Interested in the British peerage? See my website at www.thepeerage.com
On 3/12/2020, at 11:09 AM, dr Wilton McDonald II - Gmail <wilton.mcdonald2001@gmail.com> wrote:
Darryl
I’m a direct descendant of Donald Grumach. Just wondering why the family tree has not been completed for my line which extends to Jamaica where my 2x great grand father James Macdonald b. 1788 in Inverness Scotland died.
Thanks for letting me know.
Donald Gruamach MacDonald of Capstill1

___________________________________________________

Sent many emails to the Peerage and My ancestral line leading to Jamaica was not tracked from the 1500s. Peter and Sharon this is not a case of James Mcdonald b. 1788 being undocumented. James was burried in Grange Hill / Morgan's Harbor, Westmoreland Jamaica- the church burnt records but paying a guy to find his grave. He is most likely in the Cholera section. Also Daniel my dad's dad died in Little London, Westmoreland Jamaica. Squatters have taken over the land but cousins Blondell and others are a DNA match and following up the case. I'm not sitting around for anything. I'm actively tracing my lines in Jamaica to black Scots- and also focusing on the Yahya connection. Note me succeeding has nothing to do with your version of events trying to connect R haplos with black Scottish people like Somerled and the Bruce.

I am given no help or assistance and the Clan Bible is wrong written by Alasdair Macdonald- James did not die alone in Jamaica. He darn wife was Jane Wells (married in 1839) a mixed race woman. According to the laws back then Jane did not count as a person.

So it's my fault that the racist laws of Jamaica and England did not recognize Jane Wells as a person? This is my fault right ?

It's my fault that the PEERAGE has deliberately stopped tracking my Jamaican Scottish Macdonald line from the 1500s?

White is right and i get that but i am tired of accepting that.

Sharon i am in transit and will look at your posts

Note that i am putting together a team of PhDs and scholars to combine sources on black Hebrews and connections to Picts and medieval figures like Somerled- that info is coming

As to Anglo Saxon chronicles- all fakes and replied in another chat.

Will take a look at the DNA chat section now. Dont be so angry calm down.

Wilton, people who disagree with you I am fairly certain are NOT angry (myself included). Most folks have asked you for evidence to support the assertions which you have made; something which you have not done and to-date from looking on GENI Discussions, as you have provided ZERO evidence to-date unfortunately.

The book “Traced” has been discussed as a supposed source of support for assertions.

So I looked quickly for some reviews from persons identified as more qualified in the area. I decided once again not to purchase the book based on a review by Daniel Stern, an evolutionary biologist.

Review placed on GoodReads website;

"I’m an evolutionary biologist and pay close attention to the work that comes out of the major creationist ministries, such as Answers in Genesis, where the author, Dr. Nathaniel Jeanson, is employed.

“Traced: Human DNA’s Big Surprise” Dr. Jeansons’s new book. In Traced, Dr. Jeanson uses Y-chromosome haplotypes to argue that the Y chromosome supports a Young Earth history, specifically the AiG version.

His argument works like this:

1. Establish a Y-chromosome mutation rate based pedigree studies to calculate a Y-chromosome time to most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) approximately 4500 years ago.

2. Reinterpret the Y-chromosome phylogeny and chronology based on this earlier TMRCA.

3. Correlate historical events, like migrations, to nodes in the Y-chromosome phylogeny.

4. Overlay the Y-chromosome phylogeny onto the pedigree for Noah and his sons derived from Genesis.

5. Do (3) for Biblical events (e.g. the Flood, Babel, etc.)

6. Claim you rewrote the history of humanity and confirmed the AiG interpretation of Genesis.

There are significant problems with the case Jeanson makes.

The first, which underlies much of his analysis, is that he treats genealogy and phylogeny as interchangeable.

They are not interchangeable. Genealogy is the history of individuals and familial relationships. Phylogeny is the evolutionary history of groups: populations, species, etc. A phylogenetic tree may superficially look like a family tree, but all those lines and branch points represent populations, not individuals. This is an extremely basic error.

There are additional problems with each step of the case he makes.

In terms of calculating the Y-TMRCA (that’s time to most recent common ancestor), he uses single-generation pedigree-based mutation rates rather than long-term substitution rates, which is not a valid technique, since many mutations are lost from populations due to natural selection and genetic drift. He even references a couple of studies that indicate the consensus date of 200-300kya for the Y-MRCA, but dismisses them as low-quality, and ignores that there are many, many more such studies.

He is constrained in an extremely narrow timespan for much of the Y-chromosome branching due to its claimed occurrence after Noah’s Flood (~4500 years ago) and running up against well-documented, recorded human history (he ignores that Egyptian history spans the Flood).

In correlating his revised node dates on the Y-chromosome phylogeny with historical events, he employs extremely amateurish “analysis”, such as “the ancestral population for sister haplogroups existed along the line between the geographic homeland for the derived groups, and the descendants migrated in opposite directions”. I’m not exaggerating; this is how he explains how and where E1b1a and E1b1b descended from E1b1.

He also ignores inconvenient data that refute his model. For example, Jeanson claims haplotype R1b arrived in Europe between 700 and 1400 CE, and specifically in Italy in the 14- or 1500s. However, we have DNA from a stone age burial in northern Italy dated to about 14,000 years ago, and that individual was R1b.

Even if we take Jeanson’s young-earth timeline at face value, a stone age specimen would be pretty close to the flood, about 4kya, which also directly invalidates his model.

To overlay the Y-chromosome phylogeny (with incorrect new dates incorrectly correlated to historical events) with the pedigree of Noah and his sons and their descendants derived from Genesis, Jeanson egregiously acts as though a phylogenetic tree and a pedigree are interchangeable, treating nodes on the phylogeny as specific individuals rather than populations.

And finally, he correlates the haplotypes on the phylogeny (now incorrectly overlayed with Noah’s family tree) with Biblical groups and events.

That’s how Jeanson rewrites the history of humanity.

There’s another serious issue Jeanson ignores entire: Neanderthals. Neanderthals interbred with Homo sapiens. Most YECs have Neanderthals (and Denisovans) as descendants of Adam and Eve, living post-flood. This means that Noah is also *their* Y-MRCA. The problem is that we have Neanderthal genomes, and their Y chromosomes are highly divergent. This necessarily pushes the MRCA back far beyond the YEC timeline, even using Jeanson’s incorrect mutation rates. Jeanson completely ignores these data that directly refute his model.

So Traced doesn’t do what we’re told it does. It’s too full of basic errors and shoddy analysis.

It’s not designed to convince real biologists that AiG is actually right. And I don’t even think it’s designed to convince non-YECs, Christian or not, that YEC is right. I think this is designed to reassure people already on board with AiG’s version of Genesis that they have “science” to back up their beliefs. It’s to make a subset of YECs feel good, and not much more. There are too many errors, basic, obvious errors, for anything else.”

Here is the link if anyone is interested:

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/60417502#

Peter - why not dissect what the good professor said about your haplo Rs? There is little real confidence placed in your R line and how it connects to Scotland and Somerled. You wish to skirt the obvious - please re read what he said and like i said before all the DNA testing of a few "rather close close " cousins of yours do not amount to much. On the global scale - means you are related to each other over a span of 200 years which given the pop explosion between 1800 and 1900 AD means nothing.

Jeanson is 1 source- more sources coming from my black Hebrew scholars and friends.

As persons of color we are used to fighting with 1 hand oftentimes 2 hands tied behind our backs- call it the "black tax" and it is very common that the deck is stacked against us but we do our best so you will have that shortly. It will be explosive my Caucasus friend. Perhaps you can run a DNA check with my wife Lina- should be a close match.

More to come so dont worry your head on just 1 source. It's a good start- not the only source and what i am trying to do is to connect MENA with Scotland and Jamaica in 1 shot deal. So give me time my Caucasus friend.

An NPE, likely more than one, perhaps in places other than where all of the attention is focused, seems likely to me.

If those of you following map your matches, have a look.

Wilton- There is no judgment from me towards anyone here. Mapping DNA matches is curiosity, not judgment. NPEs are something I assume we all have. I have a match with both of your parents.

My maternal haplogroup is not H. I have inferred my father's was an R1b, based on paternal line relationships, however, there is a slim chance he was not. Unlike you, I'm not on a personal quest, so it is not a matter of pride or insult towards others. Only genealogical research and curiosity.

Wilton, you appear to be answering for the sake of appealing to the audience rather than directly responding to what I am asserting. So for context, here is the statement from the administrator of the Clan Donald DNA project, whose statement you are alluding to:

*********
There is only one "high level" question left for R1a. We've not really started for R1b.

For the R1a Norse/Somerled line the remaining question is the resolution of the DNA lines for the Keppoch/Dunnyveg and the Glens/original R1a Antrim chiefs. The paper lines, iffy though they most certainly are, agree that Dunnyveg matches Antrim as the paper claims.

The DNA of the BigYs, even iffier, requires that Keppoch and Dunnyveg/Antrim descend from the same son of John 1st Lord of the Isles. This contradicts the historical paper trails. I consider that the most likely problem is that the Keppoch paper across the sea is wrong ... but that's just a feeling based on statistics of the number of "in common with" autosomal matches.

On a different subject, please note that if you are looking at McDonald/McDougall/McAllister for confirmation that Somerled really was the Y-chromosome ancestor of John, 1st Lord of the Isles, you should also consider the case of McEachern, which on historical paper (or oral tradition!) comes from a close Y-ancestor of Somerled.

What is seldom discussed is that it’s actually probable that at least a few tests of medieval DNA will turn up that address this, eventually.

*******
What this professor of chemistry is referring to is the historical reconciliation of the Y haplogroups of the MacDonalds of Keppoch/Dunnyveg with the MacDonnells of Antrim, since the paper records show that the the MacDonnells descend from John of Islay, who lived hundreds of years after Somerled. This is ONE genealogical offshoot of Somerled and has nothing to do with the predominance of Haplo Rs in Europe, or the identity of Somerled as R1A as has been established through the testing of more than 3,000 individuals in the MacDonald and MacDougall projects. However, the MacDougall and MacAlister lines are supported through independent research conducted at the University of Strathclyde.Which supports the evidence that the current Clan Donald Chiefs are indeed descended from Somerled.

To somehow attempt to twist this statement into a profession of belief that Haplo Rs were not a prominent haplogroup in Europe, or that Somerled is not R1A as the project has established, is either a malicious falsehood and intentional misrepresentation on your part, or an indication that you have not studied that MacDonald family lines… or you simply don’t care as long as you are able to claim that you are descended from Somerled.

AND… as Sharon has pointed out… your claim to descent from Somerled could be characterized as being weaker than tenuous. Not only are their glaring holes in your lineage at a critical point, but your story relies on several events to have transpired that there is no evidence of, and that seem to exist solely in your imagination. Again, I think Sharon said it best when she alluded to the fact that you seem content to discredit the results of thousands of DNA tests in one of the most thorough DNA-based genealogical studies every conducted simply because it disrupts your fantasy that you are descended from Somerled. Apparently, acknowledging the truth would be devastating to your self-image.

Also, Wilton, for the sake of maintaining the allegorical portrait that you're attempting to paint, if the head of the Clan Donald DNA Project is my "boss," then you are genealogically unemployed. If the intent is to connect a Haplo E line to Somerled, you haven't got a leg to stand on. Between your erroneous paper trail that NO experts have authenticated, and your lack of a haplogroup that matches the data, you have nothing that connects you with Somerled except your surname, and there are thousands of examples of people acquiring the MacDonald surname or one of its derivatives without direct patrilineal descent from Somerled. You just happen to be one of them. There's no shame in it, despite the fact that you appear to be going to great lengths to mask the fact that you fall into this category.

Peter you are missing the point....you are unable to prove you descend from Somerled. No one can establish this firmly being a haplo R. I'm a proud E and i told you many times over that I have established my Macdonald line in Jamaica without any help from The Peerage and i am linking up Mena to the black Picts who came before Somerled. We dont know who Somerled was and you claiming to be linked to a man which no one truly knows is extremely sad. The senior administrator has managed haplo Rs and expressed doubts about the haplo R connectivity to Somerled.

More to follow but once more no one can connect to Somerled. Where is his body ? It was never found or tested.

Speaking to Philip the next Prime Minister of Barbados- he is a strong Hebrew and we - panel of 30 professionals feel a major US Federal action is needed to correct history and to challenge the Haplo R's claim to our history. I'm willing to put in US 1m to fund the class action.

Here are the words of Haplo E cousin Orrett Mcdonald from Jamaica - nearby parish- no trace of slavery, and like my dad he remembers very very old Scottish Jacobite songs. The DNA companies have ensured we dont match as Jamaican haplo Es and so the lawsuit will change all that. Orret has his own music studio in Jamaica and is dedicating a new album to me and other Haplo E black Hebrews- read his words below- it's like a cry for Freedom, Freedom from the lies of history and the past concerning black heritage and connection to Europe.

"The first time cuz you send this great song 🎶 Bonnie banks it test your cousin ability we mc Donald are great mind full of great knowledge and ability the young mc Donald mind also full of great knowledge ability
Great great grand father is smiling of Dr Wilton McDonald for inspiration
You gives The great song'🎶 Bonnie banks more life in classical 🏛 reggae song 🎶
Blessings, Orrett McDonald "

Following up on the book “Traced”, Jeanson has unrooted the genetic Tree, placed in Noah as he progenitor of all Human Y DNA Lines and the assigned Noah's three son’s the lines which make up all the current Y DNA Haplogroups that currently exist, as follows:

1. Haplogroup L to T (which includes the R Haplogroups) descended from Shem

2. Haplogroup I to J descended from Japheth

3. A to H (including Haplogroup E) descended from Ham

These three lines are from where all the the Halogroup descend.

So in short, Jeanson’s book Traced believes in a compressed timeline and super high levels of Y DNA mutation rates for Humanity to make the data sets he used fit a Bibical Timeline of events. I have also noticed that Jeanson has determined an origin for Noah and his sons from the area of what is now considered the Middle East. This proposal of a Middle East origin for humankind goes against the commonly held belief that humankind arose from Africa from both archaeology and genetic testing.