Odo I, count of Orléans - Disputed Parents

True - see Eudes "Odo", comte d'Orléans Parents Unknown. Will amend. Thank you.

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#EudesOrlea...

The profile is curated by Sharon Doubell so it will be her decision to allow a child added to
Eudes "Odo", Comte d'Orléans who is not in Medlands.

Can you make it easier for her and copy out in text the details of what you propose, and why? Just seeing it in a pedigree is not good enough.

The citation for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odo_I,_Count_of_Orl%C3%A9ans as son of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian,_Count_of_Orl%C3%A9ans is only at Adrian's page.

Le Jan 2003, p. 213.

So, so far, no.

Not in Medlands.

Not a visible scholarly citation - if it's in your links, I can't easily see it.

And as said on the other discussion, it's Sharon's decision, not mine.

This is what Cawley has - Odo and Eudes as different people.

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SWABIAN%20NOBILITY.htm#Hildegardis...

ADRIAN . "Adrianus filius Geroldi" donated property "in pago Worm. in Flannenheimire marca…" to Kloster Lorsch, for the soul of "Erbionis germani mei", by charter dated 11 Jul 793[778]. same person as…? ADRIAN (-before 10 Nov 821). No proof has so far been found which confirms this co-identity. However, the name Adrianus was unusual at that time which indicates that it may be correct. m WALDRADA, daughter of --- (-after 15 Feb 824). "Uualtrat relicta Adriani" donated property "in castello Pingi in pago Wormacense" to Fulda by charter dated 10 Nov 821 with the consent of "Votoni comitis"[779]. "Uualtrat et Voto" donated property "in pago Wormacense in castello Pingna" to Fulda by charter dated 15 Feb 824, subscribed by "Albrichi comitis"[780]. Adrianus & his wife had two children:

i) ODO (-after 15 Feb 824). "Uualtrat relicta Adriani" donated property "in castello Pingi in pago Wormacense" to Fulda by charter dated 10 Nov 821 with the consent of "Votoni comitis"[781]. "Uualtrat et Voto" donated property "in pago Wormacense in castello Pingna" to Fulda by charter dated 15 Feb 824[782]. Neither of these charters states that Odo was the son of Waldrada, but this is a fair assumption. [same person as …? EUDES [Odo] (-killed in battle Jun 834). Comte d´Orléans. Levillain identifies Odo, son of Waldrada, with Eudes Comte d'Orléans[783]. This seems unlikely to be correct as the name Guillaume/Wilhelm (brother of Eudes Comte d´Orléans) does not appear at all in the Udalrichinger family.]

You are not showing how Odo and Eudes are the same person, and Cawley has shown they are not.

And, you are not showing "most other resources" - not that it matters. You are talking to a person who has seen literally 100 trees who are incorrect. So, that's not an argument you can use with me. :) :)

We look for primary sources and academic interpretation of the scant data. The links you offered discuss family names as reasons to link people into families. So, if there's no Guillaume in the family, its a flag that they were from different families.

I may able to pull out an English translation. But there are primary sources mentioned in Cawley, and

"Levillain identifies Odo, son of Waldrada, with Eudes Comte d'Orléans[783]."

Find that citation, and explain why he's correct when Cawley had determined he's wrong.

Also look for

Le Jan, Régine (2003). Famille et pouvoir dans le monde franc (VIIe-Xe siècle) (in French). Publications de la Sorbonne. Page 213.

From https://books.openedition.org/psorbonne/24621

12. Marriages also strengthened real political alliances .... In the second quarter of the 9th century , the marriage of Eudes of Orléans, son of the Geroldid Adrian, with Ingeltrude, granddaughter of Count Gerard of Paris, was at the origin of the Eudes-Adalhard party 29

29 Infra chapter XI.

85. Even though many unions contravened ecclesiastical legislation on incest, hierarchical groupings were no longer underpinned by endogamous practices, but by multiple crossbreedings and chains of alliances between better individualized families. The marriage of Eudes of Orléans, grandson of Gérold through his father Adrian, with Ingeltrude, granddaughter of Gérard of Paris through her father Leuthard, is part of a series of alliances renewed over several generations within the same kinship network. This family group included Géroldides, Rupertians—closely linked to the former as M. Gockel has shown183 — as well as Girardides. .... Ultimately, the marriage of Eudes of Orléans and Ingeltrude appears to be a chain of alliances also intended to ensure the stability of local groups 191 . The structures were also flexible enough to allow for chains in other directions 192 .

201 M. Gockel ( Karolingische, op. cit., pp. 243-246) has identified Adrian, husband of Waldrade and father of Eudes, as a brother or nephew of Queen Hildegarde. In the first hypothesis, the marriage of Charles and Ermentrude (3/3) would not have been possible. We will therefore follow M. Mitterrauer ( Karolingische Markgrafen in Südosten, Vienna 1963, pp. 11-13) who makes him a nephew, which is suggested by the chronology, the name of Pope Hadrian doubtless given to the nephew of the queen at the baptism which perhaps took place in Rome in 774 on the occasion of the journey of Charlemagne and Gerold II and which makes the marriage of Charles and Ermentrude possible.

the above text is from Le Jan, Régine (2003). Famille et pouvoir dans le monde franc (VIIe-Xe siècle) (in French). Publications de la Sorbonne. Chapter IX. The marriage strategy . 287-327

And now I'll try it in more proper order.

Le Jan, Régine (2003). Famille et pouvoir dans le monde franc (VIIe-Xe siècle) (in French). Publications de la Sorbonne. Chapter VI. Identifying parents: the naming method p. 179-223
https://books.openedition.org/psorbonne/24609

I am extracting what seems relevant.

2. To identify one's parents, the individual uses signs that are more or less significant depending on the case: the name is the first of these, since the use of a common name, transmitted from generation to generation, is a significant symbol in all systems of filiation 2 , undoubtedly the most important of all in the early Middle Ages 3 .

6. The onomastic system is therefore that of the single name, which makes its study difficult. Although a common name is then an indication of kinship, one cannot in fact classify as relatives individuals who have only their name in common. This presumption of kinship must be confirmed by other indications, such as the transmission of possessions, successions to the same positions, or even links with the same religious establishments 8 …

7. It is first necessary to prove that all aristocratic families, and not only those of the high aristocracy, transmitted names from generation to generation. ...

97. Wialdrude and his grandson Waltger had the root Wiald/Walt in common. Wialdrude must therefore have belonged to the group of Eudes who actively supported Robert the Strong when he arrived in Francia in 836 180 . His name in fact refers to that of Waldrade, borne by the mother of Eudes of Orléans and William (Willihelmus) of Blois. These people were close relatives (uncle and father most likely) of Eudes of Chateaudun-Troyes and his brother Robert Portequiquois 181 . They were Geroldians through their father Adrian (a nephew of Queen Hildegarde) 182 , willihelmians-adalhelmians through their mother Waldrade, who must have been a sister of William of Gellone and Adelhelm 183 . Since both Waldrade and Wialdrude passed on the name Adelhelm to their descendants, and the name Eudes passed on to the Robertians in the generation of Rupert III and Wialdrude's grandsons, there is nothing to prevent Wialdrude from being a daughter of Waldrade and Adrian, and therefore a sister of Eudes of Orléans and William of Blois. However, any other combination is possible.

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Table No. 19. THE ADEL-ALD-ALT-WALT-WILLI-HELM IN THE 8TH AND 9TH CENTURIES

The previous book cited at Medlands is given a fuller citation here:

https://thesignsofthetimes.com.au/31/63096.htm

Some secondary sources show Eudes as the son of Hadrian, comte d'Orléans, and Waldrat von Hornbach, this from Levillain, who identifies Eudes, with Odo, son of Adrianus [Udalrichinger] and his wife Waldrada. [Levillain, L. 'Les Nibelungen historiques et leurs alliances de famille' Annales du Midi 49 (1937) 337-407, 50 (1938) 5-66, 31-43].

Cawley offers a clue for a different mother of the 3 siblings:

It is possible that he was the same person as "Hodo", although if this is correct the precise nature of the relationship between him and Héribert has not been established. Assuming that Héribert was the son of Guillaume de Toulouse and his first wife Cunigundis... , and assuming also that "consobrinus" is used in the text in its strict sense, Cunegundis and the mother of Eudes Comte d'Orléans would have been sisters." 1

Here's Regine Le Jan's page at the Sorbonne:

https://www.pantheonsorbonne.fr/page-perso/rlejan

So we need to use the Genealogical Proof Standard.

https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Genealogical_Proof_Standard

And there's another issue, specific to Geni as a collaborative tree. Historians like Le Jan can do more reconstructions, as genealogy is a tool in their kit. It's an aid to their understanding of time and place, and I think her work interesting and detailed. But conversely, history is a tool in the genealogists kit (and not as interesting). But it has more permanence for more people. We expect history to shift a bit with different viewpoints and studies. But lose a pedigree? People get very upset! Let's be very certain and detailed before attempting to correct Cawley.

Thanks Erica. I will only have time to look at this properly over the weekend.