Ranulph II 'le Meschin' de Bayeux - Ranulph II 'le Meschin' de Bayeux

Started by John Love on Friday, October 28, 2022
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10/28/2022 at 5:28 AM

Greetings everyone.
I want to make sure I'm understanding how/why there are several last names for Ranulph II children? My assumption would be that the children would maintain the de Bayeux name and not convert it to the nickname. (Yes I know what happens when I assume.) Any help would be appreciated.
Best regards,
John Love

10/28/2022 at 10:49 AM

Ranulph II 'le Meschin' de Bayeux is my 29th great grandfather.
You
→ Elza Dzelvite (Grahpe,Grāpe)
your mother → Jahn Grahpe
her father → Baron Arnold Julius von Vietinghoff-Riesch
his father → Juliane Charlotte Lulla von Vietinghoff
his mother → Helene Gertrude von Krüdener
her mother → Bsse Helene Maria Esther von Völckersahm
her mother → Helene d'Orville von Löwenclau
her mother → Isaac d'Orville von Löwenclau
her father → Peter Friedrich d'Orville
his father → Pierre Peter d'Orville
his father → Samuel d'Orville
his father → Anne Godin, de Tampezo
his mother → Christophe Godin
her father → Isabeau Picot
his mother → François Picot
her father → François Picot
his father → Jacques II Picot
his father → Catherine Desprets
his mother → Waulthier 'de Haluin' Desprest dit de Quiévrain
her father → Guilhaume Desprest dit de Quiévrain
his father → Gilles des Prets, dit de Quiévrain
his father → Esme de Mortagne
his mother → Jeanne de Rochechouart
her mother → Jeanne fitzPiers - percy - rochechouart, Lady of Chewton
her mother → Matilda (or Maud) de Ferrers
her mother → William de Ferrers, III, 5th Earl of Derby, Constable of Bolsover Castle
her father → Agnes of Chester, Countess of Derby
his mother → Hugh de Kevelioc, 5th Earl of Chester
her father → Ranulf de Gernon, 4th Earl of Chester
his father → Ranulph III de Bayeux, 3rd earl of Chester, vicomte of Bayeux
his father → Ranulph II 'le Meschin' de Bayeux
his father

Private User
10/28/2022 at 12:56 PM

I'm only speculating and commenting now, because it's an interesting question and I enjoy discussing and learning more about family histories. So here goes:

I guess it could be partly because surnames were not an established thing in those days,yet titles and birth locations or family origins certainly were. Also popular nicknames, and anything that could serve to indicate who sired them. An unusual nickname for a famous patriarch could serve the purpose, in many cases.

The assumption by the lower-ranking younger progeny of a particular form of the patriarch's nickname was possibly used by some clerks and historians simply as a means to identify their origins or blood lines, while the heir apparent had his own name and title that was enough to clearly identify him as the son of the man from whom he inherited the title. And apparently the eldest son and heir additionally gained his wife's inherited title as 3rd earl of Chester.

The second son acquired a title somehow, and was distinguished with the honor of carrying a classier form of the nickname ("the" Meschin), while the younger siblings were called "of" Meschin.

On a side note, just an idle observation and personal opinion: The repetition of "de Bayeux" in Ranulph II's display name seems redundant although that may be the correct form, for all I know. I would think it could be tacitly assumed that he was "from Bayeux" by virtue of the fact that he inherited the title as lord of that region.

10/29/2022 at 12:04 PM

Sorry, but may I follow up on the name "Meschin"? My mother, Vally (née Meschin) spoke of overhearing many conversations of adults -- including her grandfather -- in her family who spoke of family origins from France. She was born in Estonia in 1921 and is now deceased. I've been able to trace her family tree to Livonia where my forefather Mikkus Meschin, b.1823 in Mež(a)broka Neuhaus in Livonia. That birthplace is not listed in Livonian place names and is not known to the fellow who keeps a catalogue of Livonian place names. The search stops there.
Is anyone able to explain how Meschin got to Livonia, presumably from France?

Private User
10/29/2022 at 1:16 PM

Walter Johanson I noticed that too, and didn't quite know what to make of it. However, without further evidence I'm assuming Meschin in that region is not French language but rather, Romanian (meaning "petty" or small, according to google translate anyway).

https://archive.org/search.php?query=meschin&sin=TXT&and[]=...

10/29/2022 at 1:21 PM

Re: I want to make sure I'm understanding how/why there are several last names for Ranulph II children? My assumption would be that the children would maintain the de Bayeux name and not convert it to the nickname.

Answer from google: After 1066, the Norman barons introduced surnames into England, and the practice gradually spread. Initially, the identifying names were changed or dropped at will, but eventually they began to stick and to get passed on.

And … In 1066 many landowners were simply referred to by their Anglo-Saxon first names, but by 1086 surnames are included.

https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/England_Surname_Origins_(National_Institute)

The custom of applying a man’s by-name to all his children began in the late 12th century and spread slowly, with the manorial classes and the south of England leading the way. The first legal recognition of an hereditary surname is found in 1267 ….

10/29/2022 at 3:18 PM

Thank you for the reply. As nothing of historical significance occurred between Livonia and Romania. Romanians aren't even listed in the ethnic composition of either Estonia or Latvia. The Mikkus Meschin I mentioned apparently was a magistrate in Livonia and granted land by a Tsar as a reward for service.
I'll keep looking toward France.

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