Elizabeth Seton - Is the wife of Alexander a daughter of Seton?

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вчера в 1:01 до полудня

Erica Howton says here https://www.geni.com/discussions/251427?msg=1570901:
Elizabeth Seton Was disproved as Elizabeth Halliburton.

https://ancestorium.com/tng/getperson.php?personID=I037488&tree=1

The Munros were not alone in failing to discern the true identity of "Dame Elizabeth Haliburton, Countess of Ross," referred to in the note of a discharge cited above. Complete Peerage V. 11, p. 151, published in 1949, makes the same mistake.

Doug Hickling (November 2003)

——

This site, based on Doug Hickling (I think?) has Elizabeth as mother of John, Margaret and Flora.

This is also what Justin’s original entries had, if you look at revisions.

вчера в 1:04 до полудня

Cawley has her as Alexander MacDonald, 9th Lord of the Isles, 12th Earl of Ross m (before 1431) ELIZABETH Halyburton, daughter of --- (-after Dec 1444).

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTTISH%20NOBILITY%20LATER.htm#Ale...

вчера в 1:09 до полудня

From the profile's About:

1st letter from Douglas Hickling based on research of Jean Munro, Ph.D., and R. W. Munro.

"I am going to comment on the name of Alexander's wife. Virtually all of the authorities state, without any documentary proof, that Alexander's wife was Elizabeth Seton, a daughter of Sir Alexander Seton and his wife Elizabeth Gordon. The Munros in their ACTS OF THE LORDS 0F THE ISLES, at 302-303 and elsewhere provide convincing evidence that Elizabeth's surname was Haliburton. At, 63, the Munros set forth a 1443 note of a discharge to Sir John Scrymgeour by "Dame Elizabeth Haliburton, countess of Ross," apparently the only contemporary record which gives Elizabeth's surname. The Munros, at 241, set forth a reference to a papal indult, dated 19 October 1433, to Alexander and Jacobella, his wife, for a portable altar. There seems to be no other record of this earlier marriage or of any children resulting therefrom. On 2 November 1467, Alexander's son John granted a charter confirming a gift to the monastery of Fearn "for the salvation of the souls of his parents, Alexander earl of Ross and Elizabeth his wife." (See Munros, at 143.) This shows that Elizabeth, not Jacobella, was John's mother. BURKE'S PEERAGE & BARONETAGE (106th edition), at 328, accepts "Elizabeth Halyburton, probably of Dirletoun," as Alexander's wife. "

Douglas Hickling (August 2003)

2nd letter from Douglas Hickling

Based on my previous e-mail to you, you now show that the wife of Alexander Macdonald ID: I37488, and the mother of John, Lord of the Isles, was Dame Elizabeth Haliburton.

A correction seems to be needed. In the fall 2003 issue of THE GENEALOGIST, there is an article by Andrew B. W. MacEwen, beginning at 222, on Cristina de Brus, Countess of Dunbar. At page 225, the author, as an illustration of the difficulty in sometimes determining a woman's maiden name, says:

And the twice married Isabella Stewart of Albany in a discharge dated 10 December 1443 was styled "Dame Elizabeth Haliburton, countess of Ross," taking the rank of her first husband, Alexander Lesley, Earl of Ross, and the surname of her second husband, Sir Walter Haliburton of Dirleton--and seriously misleading such acute modern scholars as the Munros.

Footnote 13 says: "Jean Munro, Ph.D., and R. W. Munro, eds. ACTS OF THE LORDS OF THE ISLES 1336-1493, Scottish History Society, 4th ser., 22 (1986); 63, No. 41. Corrected in WEST HIGHLAND NOTES & QUERIES [Isle of Coll. Argyll], ser. 2, No. 19 (March 1999): 24-25."

The foregoing means that Isabel, daughter of Robert Duke of Albany, married (in 1398) Alexander, Earl of Ross (died 1402). She subsequently married Sir Walter Haliburton of Direlton. The wife of Alexander, Lord of the Isles and Earl of Ross (died 1499) [? date should be 1449?] and the mother of their son John, the last earl of Ross and lord of the Isles, cannot be named with certainty. As the Munros point out at p. 63 in their comment regarding the note of a discharge No. 41, and in a subsequent comment at p. 303, Elizabeth Seton, daughter of Sir Alexander Seton and Elizabeth Gordon, and sister of the first earl of Huntly, has been accepted as the wife of Alexander, but she is not so named in any contemporary record. Her place as the wife of Alexander, Lord of the Isles and Earl of Ross depends upon a 16th century Gordon genealogy by John Ferrerius . Ferrerius is generally well-regarded and I suggest that you may wish to show Elizabeth Seton as the earl's wife.

The Munros were not alone in failing to discern the true identity of "Dame Elizabeth Haliburton, Countess of Ross," referred to in the note of a discharge cited above. Complete Peerage V. 11, p. 151, published in 1949, makes the same mistake.

Doug Hickling (November 2003)

вчера в 1:17 до полудня

It’s a dense piece, right? But I think I get it, and the correction is not until 2003.

вчера в 1:35 до полудня

Here it is (with the Haliburton name) in Acts of the lords of the Isles, 1336-1493 (1986). Page 303, Appendix D.

https://digital.nls.uk/scottish-history-society-publications/browse...

Сегодня в 2:53 до полудня

Isabel,
daughter of Robert Duke of Albany
x (in 1398) Alexander, Earl of Ross (died 1402).
xx Sir Walter Haliburton of Direlton.

Elizabeth Seton, daughter of Sir Alexander Seton and Elizabeth Gordon, and sister of the first earl of Huntly, has been accepted as the wife of Alexander, but she is not so named in any contemporary record. Her place as the wife of Alexander, Lord of the Isles and Earl of Ross depends upon a 16th century Gordon genealogy by John Ferrerius

Сегодня в 3:37 до полудня

"Alexander is apparantly married by 1431 when his mother is referred to as domina de Insulis senior (ER IV 541). There is an indult of 19 Oct 1433 by Pope Eugenius IV to him and his wife, therin named Jacobella (noB15)> His son, John, seems to have been born c1434. In a discharge dated 10 Sep 1443, dame Elizabeth Haliburton is styled Countess of Ross (no 41) and that the Christian name of Alexander's wife was Elizabeth is confirmed by a papal mandate to admonish him and his concubine Christina Maclaide 24 Mar 1445/6 (No B18), and by their son's charter 2 Nov 1467 (no 90) https://www.geni.com/documents/view/6000000185694300967?doc_id=6000000185737345922

Сегодня в 3:42 до полудня

cf Lady Isobel Stewart aka Jacobella Haliburton??

Сегодня в 3:43 до полудня
Сегодня в 3:45 до полудня

Alexander Leslie, Earl of Ross MP
Gender: Male
Birth: 1333
Ross, Cromartyshire, Scotland (United Kingdom)
Death: 08 May 1402 (68-69)
Dingwall, Scotland
Immediate Family:
Son of Walter Leslie, Seventh Earl of Ross and Euphemia I, Countess of Ross
Husband of Lady Isobel Stewart
Father of Euphemia Leslie, Countess of Ross
Brother of Margaret Leslie and Mariota Leslie, Countess of Ross

Сегодня в 3:46 до полудня

Alexander MacDomhnaill, Earl of Ross, and Lord of the Isles MP
Gender: Male
Birth: estimated between 1370 and 1420
Tulloch Castle,Dingwall,Ross And Cromarty,Scotland
Death: 08 May 1449
Tulloch Castle,Dingwall,Ross And Cromarty,Scotland
Place of Burial: Fortrose Cathedral
Immediate Family:
Son of Donald MacDonald, of Harlaw, 8th Lord of the Isles and Mariota Leslie, Countess of Ross
Husband of NN daughter of O'Beolan, lay Abbot of Applecross and Elizabeth Seton
Partner of MacPhee
Father of Hugh Macdonald, of Sleat; Celestine Macdonald of Lochalsh; John MacDonald, 13th Earl of Ross, Last Lord of the Isles; (perhaps) Margaret MacDonald and Florence (Flora) MacDonald

Сегодня в 3:50 до полудня

So Alexander Leslie, Earl of Ross is Alexander MacDonald, 9th Lord of the Isles, 12th Earl of Ross' uncle

Alexander MacDonald, 9th Lord of the Isles, 12th Earl of Ross → Mariota Leslie, Countess of Ross his mother → Alexander Leslie, Earl of Ross her brother

Сегодня в 5:23 до полудня

Christina Halyburton
Christian Haliburton is the daughter of Walter Haliburton and Isabella Stewart.1 She married George Leslie, 1st Earl of Rothes, son of Sir Norman Leslie of Rothes and Christian Seton.1

The families obviously moved in the same circles.

Сегодня в 5:36 до полудня

I skimmed this.

https://theses.gla.ac.uk/7242/1/2015cochran-yuphd.pdf

Cochran-Yu, David Kyle (2016) A keystone of contention: the Earldom of Ross, 1215-1517. PhD thesis.

http://theses.gla.ac.uk/7242/

He really likes the (impossible) Halyburton marriage and explains the skillful politics it represents.

Сегодня в 5:46 до полудня

I'm not sure it's impossible though.

Сегодня в 6:04 до полудня

But he's def creating ties to the Seton's here; (Thanks for the interesting read.)

Earl Alexander might have played a tacit role by encouraging another recipient of Ross patronage, Alexander Seton, lord of Gordon and earl of Huntly, to throw his weight behind the Ogilvies. One year before the earl of Ross had granted Ogilvie rights in Kincardine, the earl had made a similar gesture to Seton, at the time still only lord of Gordon. On 5 October 1442 Earl Alexander granted the liferent of his barony of Kingedward to Alexander Seton. 70 This gave the lord of Gordon the income of the last remnants of the Ross earls’ patrimony in the earldom of Buchan. In conjunction with the Kincardine grants this effectively removed all detached Ross patrimony lands from direct Ross authority. The earl of Ross was systematically using his vulnerable easternmost lands to draw in new allies and attempt to create stability in the Ross patrimony furthest from MacDonald influence. chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://theses.gla.ac.uk/7242/1/2015cochran-yuphd.pdf

Сегодня в 6:28 до полудня

Nice find, I had missed that.

Сегодня в 7:19 до полудня

Earl Alexander was married by 1431 when his mother appeared as the ‘senior’ lady of the Isles 115 and on 111 Calendar of Fearn, no. 30. 112 A.L.I., no. 31. 113 Ibid., no. 46. 114 See above, 89. 115 E.R., iv, 541. 162 19 October 1433 he appeared with his wife named ‘Jacobella’, in a papal supplication. 116 This is the sole instance that the name Jacobella is used and subsequent sources indicate that the name of the earl’s wife was Elizabeth, with a common misconception that she was Elizabeth Seton, the earl of Huntly’s sister, but this has been questioned since the 117 The only surname assigned to Elizabeth assumption derives solely from Gordon sources. in contemporary documentation was Haliburton, in a note of discharge dated December 1443 from Elizabeth to John Scrymgeour. 118 Marriage to a Haliburton made sense for Alexander MacDonald in gaining momentum in the affairs of the Aird. The portion of the Aird which had long been associated with the Aird family had been inherited by the Chisholms through marriage to Margaret Aird heiress in the mid-fourteenth century, but by the time of MacDonald lordship in Ross the Chisholm male line had in turn died out and upon the death of Alexander Chisholm, grandson of Margaret Aird, Walter Haliburton inherited the Erchless portion of the Aird through his marriage to Chisholm’s daughter. 119 Therefore Earl Alexander’s Haliburton marriage allowed the earl of Ross to pursue a policy of ever widening political overtures with the nobility of the Aird, who were of more local and immediate strategic value for MacDonald security in Ross than a marriage to the Setons at this time.
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://theses.gla.ac.uk/7242/1/2015cochran-yuphd.pdf

Сегодня в 7:31 до полудня

Which would be really nice, except that

And the twice married Isabella Stewart of Albany in a discharge dated 10 December 1443 was styled "Dame Elizabeth Haliburton, countess of Ross," taking the rank of her first husband, Alexander Lesley, Earl of Ross, and the surname of her second husband, Sir Walter Haliburton of Dirleton--and seriously misleading such acute modern scholars as the Munros.

Сегодня в 7:37 до полудня

https://archive.org/details/highlandpapers01macp/page/93/mode/1up?q...

Highland papers by MacPhail, J. R. N. (James Robert Nicolson), 1858-1933 Publication date 1914. Page 92.

Сегодня в 7:40 до полудня

Alexander, Earl of Ross and Lord of the Isles, is generally said to have married Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Alexander Seton and Elizabeth Gordon, and thus sister of the first Earl of Huntly. This statement made by Crawford (Peenige, p. 232) on the authority of Ferrerius is not supported by the terms of any known charter or other contemporary writ, but there seems- no reason for doubting its accuracy, unless indeed from the fact that in a charter dated 5th October 1442 by Alexander to Huntly (then Sir Alex.inder Seton), of the barony of Kynedward, there is no hint of any relationship.

^'ery little is known about this lady. Hugh Macdonald (cf. a7ite, p. 35) plainly confuses her with her son's wife ; but the anonymous author of the marginal note on p. ,'!.■), besides accepting her identity, asserts that he has seen her name in a chai'ter, and that that charter proves her to have been the mother of Hugh of Sleat as well as of his brother John.

The document now printed shows that her Christian name was Elizabeth, so far corroborating the tradition, and it also shows that in their later years she and her husband had become seriously estranged. According to Hugh Macdonald there were three sons of the marriage, and there were cei-tainly daughters also, facts which entirely coincide with the assertion that the spouses had lived together until Alexander, 'damnabiliter illectus,' by the wiles of Christina Maclaide, had practically repudiated his wife and installed Christina in her place. Information would be welcome on many points, e.g. the identity of Christina — whether she was the mother of Hugh, Donald and Alexander, whose legiti- mation has just been discussed, and what was the upshot of the wiiole matter. If the petition on which the mandate proceeds is still extant, it and perchance other documents preserved in the Vatican archives may throw more lighten the history of Alexander and his family.

Сегодня в 7:42 до полудня

It is interesting to note the wholesome respect entertained for the power of Alexander, and the apprehension that any attempt to inflict personal admonition on him or his paramour might have grave consequences for the adventurous ecclesiastic.

Сегодня в 8:10 до полудня

The only surname assigned to Elizabeth in contemporary documentation was Haliburton, in a note of discharge dated December 1443 from Elizabeth to John Scrymgeour. 118 A.L.I., no. 41.

Сегодня в 8:15 до полудня

Does ALI mean Acts of the Lords of the Isles, 1336-1493, ed. Jean Munro and R.W. Munro, Scottish History Society (Edinburgh, 1986)?

Сегодня в 8:18 до полудня

And - that’s about Isabel Stewart. Not Elizabeth, wife of Alexander.

A correction seems to be needed. In the fall 2003 issue of THE GENEALOGIST, there is an article by Andrew B. W. MacEwen, beginning at 222, on Cristina de Brus, Countess of Dunbar. At page 225, the author, as an illustration of the difficulty in sometimes determining a woman's maiden name, says:

And the twice married Isabella Stewart of Albany in a discharge dated 10 December 1443 was styled "Dame Elizabeth Haliburton, countess of Ross," taking the rank of her first husband, Alexander Lesley, Earl of Ross, and the surname of her second husband, Sir Walter Haliburton of Dirleton--and seriously misleading such acute modern scholars as the Munros.

In Scots documents, scholars are used to women signing with their maiden names. Well, apparently not so much, in this case.

Сегодня в 8:21 до полудня

Does ALI mean Acts of the Lords of the Isles, 1336-1493, ed. Jean Munro and R.W. Munro, Scottish History Society (Edinburgh, 1986)?

Yes, I think so. And there’s a correction they published, but I don’t think it’s about this issue.

I had looked up Doug Hickling. He was a bit of a medievalist, Harvard trained attorney, died 2004.

Сегодня в 8:24 до полудня

“Corrected in WEST HIGHLAND NOTES & QUERIES [Isle of Coll. Argyll], ser. 2, No. 19 (March 1999): 24-25."

Maybe findable on NLS? But if Doug Hickling wrote to them in 2003, any publication would be after.

To me Isabel Stewart is ruled out due to age.

Сегодня в 8:25 до полудня

Yes it does:https://digital.nls.uk/scottish-history-society-publications/browse...

That's better proof than anything for Elizabeth Seton

Сегодня в 8:26 до полудня

Ahh - oh that's what he was referencing

Сегодня в 8:27 до полудня

https://fasg.org/wp-content/uploads/TG-17-2.pdf

I’ll see if by any chance I can get a glimpse at AmericanAncestors but I don’t think NEHGS offers it.

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