Haim Wartski,Hachoen - Dina KATZ HESCHEL

Mike Stangel

In recent days, when I want to answer discussions - many times this is not possible for me, and I have to open a new discussion.
.
(I get a message every time to refresh the page, but refreshing doesn't help either)
In all the other sites I browse, everything is fine.

Is there a known problem in geni?

Thanks to Haim for a thorough recopilation of Wunder on the paternity and offspring of Dinah. Comments: 1) yesterday I learned of Rosenstein's position regarding Dinah's paternity which differs significantly from Wunder. Rosenstein's reasoning is contained in several texts I do not have. Someone needs to review Rosenstein in order to evaluate whether a departure from Wunder is merited. Can anyone make available one of texts for further review? 2) Wunder lists 6 offsoring. On GENI Dinah is given 16 by my count. Wunder doesn't appear to provide paternity info for the 6. On GENI paternity is credited to one or the other of Dinah's spouses. Someone needs to assess each of the offspring attributed to Dinah in the light of Wunder and any other available evidence to determine if possible who the mother and father of each child is. If no evidence can be found abiut a mother or father
or both then the child should be detached and remain without that parent or parents until evidence is brought forward. Who should do this work? Suggestion: Primarily the managers of each offspring's profile. How can work be started? A notice to the managers saying: to improve reliability of the GENI tree a reassessment of these offspring has been initiated. This is a request to all managers for sources on the parentage of each offspring. If after a reasonable amount of time no evidence is forthcoming for any offspring that child will be detached from the oarent(s) about whom no evidence exists, and shall remain so until evidence is submitted. Signed, E Randollh Schoenberg, GENI Curator

Private User

All of Dina's children I wrote to are from her second husband:
Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel, Head, Cracow Yeshiva

I apologize if this thing was not understood from the things I wrote

Private User,

I am working on obtaining and reviewing the 2 sources. I live in Lawrence, Kansas, and have an out-of-district library card that gives me access to the Midwest Genealogy Center (MGC) as well as all of the other branches of the Midcontinent Public Library, located in our neighboring state of Missouri. MGC has all of the back issues of Avotaynu. I called MGC, and put in a research query, and they have agreed to photocopy pages 28-30 of Volume XXII for me, and to email it to me. This is very kind of them, since the bound volume is a shelf copy that can only be used in the library, and it would be a long trip, way out of my way, for me to actually go to the library to photocopy the 3 pages myself. (I seldom physically go to Missouri anymore, however, I'm a big fan of their very extensive audiobook collection, which I borrow from heavily without ever leaving home).

I've also asked Lawrence Public Library, here in my town, if they can get me the Saul Wahl book through inter-library loan, however, that might not work out, since there aren't very many libraries in the U.S. that have it. Incidentally, I'm not sure, but I think it might be out of print.

Claudia

I read today the book:

שלשלת היחס של משפחת אורנשטיין - ברודא
And on page number 18 it says that mother of:
Rabbi Issachar Berish Babad

was
Rbzn. Dina Katz Heschel

According to the author of the book, his father from his first wife had no children at all

I don't know how reliable the author is...each book writes different information, but since we discussed this issue extensively in the past, I decided to update here

I am attaching here the link to the relevant information in the book

https://tablet.otzar.org/#/b/105696/p/14/t/1668622767952/fs/wh2eUUk...

Thanks for the follow-through Haim. From what I can gather, Dinah had two spouses, and each of these spouses also had two spouses, and there are children to sort out from each of the pairings, or maybe some of the pairings produced no offspring. As you suggest, each book writes different information, so what would need to be done is to gather all the available sources, see what they each say, and then construct the most reasonable interpretation based on all the sources, taking the best evidence from each source. This is obviously an enormous research project and one that is probably too difficult for any us to handle here-- should be done by a historian in the field of Ashkenazic Genealogy. BTW can you please identify the author of the source you just gave? When I try that URL you provided, I can only see a big book shelf with no text on the screen.

Private User

According to the book, to Rabbi Avraham Yehoshua Hashel:
Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel, Head, Cracow Yeshiva
There were two wives, but according to the author of the book, his first wife:
1st wife of Avraham Yehoshua Heschel

died at a young age, and all his children are from his second wife:
Rbzn. Dina Katz Heschel
According to the book (and according to other sources), Dina was indeed married in her first marriage to:
Rabbi Naftali Hirsch Katz, ABD Lublin, "Peirot Genosar"

Regarding Dina, it is easy to identify which marriage her children are from: anyone with the Katz family name is her child from the first marriage

The problem, as you know, is to find a correct source:did Rabbi Yehoshua Hashel really have no children from his first wife, or is the book wrong

As I wrote before, I have never encountered such a great controversy in rabbinic literature as in the case here
I am attaching here the details about the book:

It is not possible to upload a screenshot, so I copied the details from the book
שם הספר

שלשלת היחס של משפחת אורנשטיין - ברודא
שם מחבר

בלבן, מאיר
מקום הדפסה

ורשה
שנת הדפסה

תרצ"א
נושאים

נושאים שונים, תולדות עם ישראל
שמות נוספים
מספר הספר

105696

Thanks Haim. For the record, the source being referred to is: Ornstein Family's Genealogy- Author: Meir Belvan, Published: Warsaw 1977.

There is reason to doubt this source as pertains to the children of Av Yehoshua Heshel.

If you review the Yakovi Papers Volume 2, p126-128, you will find that Yakovi attributes several children to another wife, who is not Dinah bat Wahl. I believe Yakovi attributes Issachar Berish Babad to the other wife (not Dinah).

Private User

Unfortunately, I don't have the Yakovi Papers, so I don't know what it says

It seems to me that this issue will remain unresolved for a very long time

Haim, I highly recommend that you review the said pages from Volume 2. If someone has this book, it would be helpful to upload those pages here. Otherwise you should be able to obtain the volume from the National Library of Israel.

I am certain that these pages will help you understand the situation much better. Yakovi provides a bibliography of sources for most of his information so you will be able to evaluate each source. He uses and summarizes Wunder, Wachstein, Kaufmann, Rosenstein, and many other sources, and I believe your English is strong enough to read the genealogical information in the published papers. By the way, the original un-published Yakovi papers are housed in the National Library of Israel and can be studied there (https://www.iijg.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Inventory.pdf).

Private User

I would be very happy if someone would upload these pages here...

If you have the pages and you believe that the information in them is reliable, I would be happy if you would write down what is written in them

I have no problem reading in English, yes I have a problem getting to the national library in Israel

Haim, I do not have the book nor these pages. You need the actual pages to review the sources relied upon by Yakovi. Next time I am in the library I will obtain the pages, but this could be a while from now.

Private User

o.k.

Thanks