Maredudd ap Rhys Gryg - Maredudd ap Rhys Gryg bad data

The solution to the question would seem to be "who was the Earl of Clare at that time [1219]?"

Seemed easy enough until I read the following: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Clare. I'm sure that Wolcott had a reason for considering Gilbert to be the proper person, but I don't know what it is.

But, Cawley gives a death date of 1217 for Richard, which indicates that in 1219, son Gilbert would have at least succeeded Richard as Earl of Hertford and of Gloucester, and thus presumably Lord of Clare. But the dob of 1180 given by Medlands is problematic, and I suspect Wolcott dates him earlier. .

After carefully considerin' the whole situation, I stand with my back to the wall,
Walkin' is better than runnin' away, and crawlin' ain't no good at all - W. Nelson

Here is the ByT text in question: https://archive.org/details/brutytywysogiono00cara/page/304/mode/2up.

I also looked at Bartrum to see what he had to say, and the result is in the chart Rhys ap Tewdwr 8. In his original he shows wife number 2, for Rhys Gryg as "N.N. ferch Gilbert III, Earl of Clare" with a marriage date of 1219. It seems that Wolcott took his info from Bartrum (more or less.) However, in Bartrum's personal book ( I would just post the link to the chart here in Geni, but it is one of many that remains locked) he has penned over Gilbert and added "? Matilda f. Richard, widow of Wm de Braose who d. 1210." He adds a note: "See Michael Altschul, A Baronial Family in Medieval England: the Clares, 1217-1314, 1965 pp. 29-31." He then adds another note, this time in pencil, referencing Altschul's letter of 5/6/81, calling the woman Joan f. Richard de Clare, Carms. 32, Glam. 193

I have talked to Darrell Wolcott about the daughter and her connection to Rhys Gryg.

continuing...

Wolcott told me that in his earlier charts he had posted two possible ladies. One, a daughter of Gilbert, and the other a daughter of Richard. He asked himself might not a daughter of a deceased earl still be considered with that nomenclature? [I note that the ByT cite uses "earl" and not "Earl."] He did not add sources to his Norman chart, but at one point he did list her as Joan, daughter of Earl Richard. He adds that the "Carms" and "Glams" reference by Bartrum is for the Bodlean Mss.

So, Cawley has it right as to the lady probably being Matilda (Joan) de Clare. However, he and I both have it wrong in thinking that she is the mother of Maredudd ap Rhys Gryg (no where does Wolcott say that she is). With a marriage date of 1219, and a d.o.b. for Maredudd at c. 1202, that doesn't work, unless she was having an affair with Rhys Gryg prior to the death of her husband in 1210 - doubtful. So I will be making corrections along those lines.

But we are left with the question of "who was the mother of Maredudd." Bartrum originally charted her as Gwenllian ferch Elidir ab Owain, but that woman dates at c. 1665, and not a likely candidate. He then pencils in a preference for N.N. ferch Gilbert (now Richard," and we know that doesn't work. So that leaves Ellyw ferch Trahaearn, born c. 1170, just a bit more suitable than Gwenllian. But Bartrum charts 13 children for Rhys Gryg, so bearing a child at age 32 is still in the realm of possibilites. After all, her mother had her about the age of 29.

Thoughts?

And thanks to Robert Brian Byers for bringing this up. It's not often that we can kick around Bartrum, Cawley, and Wolcott all at one swoop.

Anne Brannen Wolcott revised his paper this afternoon to make her Joan, daughter of Earl Richard de Clare. He did not change the order of listing, but he also is not indicating a marriage order. I have taken that liberty here on Geni. I think we're on solid enough ground to go with Matilda/Joan, as in Medlands. I did disconnect all of Rhys Gryg's children from her and assigned them to Ellyw ferch Trahaearn.

Erica Howton Thanks. From what I've seen of your work, I take that as a great compliment.