Johnny Cash - Johnny Cash's Native American Ancestry

Here’s a (duplicate?) Elizabeth Hagler

Just changed great grandparents for Johnny Cash as per notes seen at profile, so they need to be checked / built out.

Johnny Cash is Philip James Hurst, (CSA)'s great grandson.

His newly connected parents are Isaac W. Hurst & Henrietta Hurst

(It’s probably not a big change).

Based on thIs letter, Elizabeth Cagle Hager is with the right origin family, and the locations match with Rebecca Hagler Overton, but so far, the dates do not work. Need the rest of Elizabeth’s children. I think she has another daughter who married another Overton.

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https://wc.rootsweb.com/trees/104973/I6544/george-cagle/individual

The only clue to contents of the George Cagle estate comes from a brief mention in the Benjamin Cagle letter of 1826. The following letter was sent by Benjamin Cagle 1774-1843 of Montgomery Co., NC, to his brother David Cagle and his sister Elizabeth Cagle Hagler, wife of Jacob Hagler, all of Henry Co., GA. The impression given is Benjamin's letter was enclosed with the letter from his mother, Rebecca (see notes on Rebecca). The text of Benjamin's letter, which deals largely with the settlement of his deceased father's estate, reads asfollow:

Brothers and Sisters and families:

"I write these few lines to you to let you know that we are all well at this time but has been very sickly this fall. We lost one of the family this fall he was about two years old a black boy. The above is sufficient for you to read and now I come to write you how Father's concerns stands. He left one horse, two cows, and all household furniture to Mother and all the rest to be equally divided except twenty dollars over and above to Robert and I and George. I expect to be ready by next October to make settlement with the Legatees and I should be glad that you could come out then as the amount of the sale was only one hundred fifty one or two dollars. I understand that Jacob Hagler and Elizabeth is a coming out here this winter but I want them to come next fall as he wrote to send him word whether or not there was any critters left for him. No there is none but one and that is left to mother.

"So no more at present but remain your affectionate brother until death.

“Benjamin Cagle," To Mr. David Cagle, State of Georgia Henry County and Elizabeth Hagler. (Note the word "creter" may mean "Critter or Creature" i.e., animal.) The person who is referred to as "father" in Benjamin's letter obviouslywas George Cagle, who had died in 1825.

I hope you work on the King Hagler profile, Linda.

I just found the smoking gun to show Rebecca Overton as child of this Jacob Hagler

1810 Federal Census Lancaster County, South Carolina. The family of Jacob Hagler. Jacob Hagler (01010/0201000) Jacob age 26-44 - wife, age 26-44 - children: boy age 10-15 (Abram) 2 girls age 10-15 (Rebecca and Susannah)

Susanna Hagler married John Overton, Jr.

Rebecca Hagler married his brother James Overton

And Elizabeth Hagler must have been a step mother, because the I don’t think the Cagles were in South Carolina. And her age reference, making her too young to be the mother of two girls marrying brothers in 1817 in Jasper County, Georgia.

Wow, we just extended Johnny Cash!

Johnny’s Hagler is Swiss.

John (Johannes) "The Cripple" Hagler, Ill

That’s a little close! You walk the line …

Linda, which page/paragraph(s) in the Merrell article (your JSTOR link) are helpful for Hagler's genealogy? I admittedly only gutted the text, but I didn't find anything. Can you specify where we should be looking? Thanks.

It seems like all of the scholarly sources I'm finding so far say nothing about Hagler's parentage, year of birth, or exact place of birth is known.

Ian Watson's Catawba Indian Genealogy (1995) casts doubt on claims about descent from Hagler, especially since he found that the main claims originated long after Hagler's death, and specifies that the only reliable documentation comes from Colonial South Carolina records. (So that's where we should look.) He also says that Catawba genealogy in general is "essentially untraceable" before the 1800s, because the only historical references in the 1700s are just to some leaders' names, not their families or relationships. This passage is important:

Throughout this period Catawba genealogy is essentially untraceable. To even begin a genealogy, one needs some way of identifying people — names. A few scattered names of kings from the 1700-1735 period appear in various records, but it was not until the late 1730s that Catawba headmen were regularly mentioned by name in colonial documents. Names of Catawba kings, headmen, and captains appear on letters, petitions, and reports of traders frequently from the 1750s on.

This has made it possible for Catawba historians to do biographical work on early Catawbas; in other words, to follow King Hagler, or Touksecay, or Captain Harris throughout their careers as Catawba leaders (for examples, see Merrell 1982; Brown 1966). But virtually nothing is ever said of their parents and their children, nor do any documents specify their relationships to any other Catawba, which makes genealogy at such an early period impossible. And since there were probably several hundred Catawbas during the 1760s, we realize that we can reconstruct biographies of only a miniscule percentage of Catawbas, and genealogies for none.

If we're going to look at Ward's The Children of King Hagler (1940), which Linda helpfully referenced through a link, we should first try to track down the 1949 issue(s?) of South Carolina Historical Magazine, which apparently gives corrections. Watson seems to use Ward for a few things, but only in the modern era.

We do understand that the Catawba claim is not relevant to this Heglar family? Everyone is in census reports, I’m uploading Wills and articles, etc.

Indeed! But if we're looking at all three of the questions we posed early on, then King Hagler also needs to be considered as one of them. Would you rather we separate the threads?

Actually better to have King Hagler addressed here. He’s discussed in Heglar / Hagler / Haigler docs I’m seeing in Ancestry trees so I’ll add the mentions to his profile. But it needs to be clear that the Hagler & Cash families do not claim the King.

Right, that's what I was thinking. Good to see we're in agreement!

Assuming no one else here has it, I've put in an interlibrary loan request for the updated 2004 edition of Watson's book. I'm assuming it's still going to leave us in the same place, with no idea who King Hagler's immediate family were, but we should of course still check it. Especially since he worked with tribal genealogists.

I’m disconnecting King Yalangway /Catawba as his father, he was his “office predecessor,” not parent. It was likely a matriarchy anyway. Also disconnecting the unsourced daughter Lucretia Creasy Rawlinson who is the wrong generation.

This profile claimed to be Johnny Cash’s progenitor. I edited the text slightly but didn’t remove it. What was the claim based on? This man (grandson) doesn’t even have a Hagler surname.

Johnny Yang Toole/ Catawba

We need to figure out the source and significance of this image: https://www.geni.com/photo/view?album_type=photos_of_me&id=6000000128683312925&photo_id=6000000178397682017&position=0

Private, can you help us out?

It's on a number of profiles but there's no context for it. Looks like a self-published list of ligatures? Ligatures are very interesting and historically important, but they aren't too helpful with genealogy, unfortunately.

The only source we have for Sallie (Hagler) Toole /Catawba (Johnny Yang Toole's given mother) being a daughter of King Hagler is an Ancestry tree that cites another uncited Ancestry tree.

This piece gives some useful info for us to keep in mind: https://www.rootsandrecall.com/york-county-sc/files/2014/11/Myths-A...

I think what's happening here is that people know there's a question of whether Sally (Toole) Evans Harris was Hagler's granddaughter (some scholars support, others don't, no strong evidence either way), and that's being used to tie everyone in this area together.

I am thinking now of Watson's reminder to only use Colonial South Carolina records in this area...too many conflicting secondary sources to easily sort any of it out!