Freida (Kamm) Bloom - ONE PERSON OR TWO?

Lisa -- I mentioned yesterday evening in
https://www.geni.com/discussions/239814?msg=1518320
that a Curator did an unmerge in the wee hours of that day.

I imagine that was a direct response by that Curator to my post in the curators discussion thread.
I do not know if he noticed it was bolloxed up after the unmerge and if so if he opened a ticket or not. (suspect it may cause problems to do a down-stream unmerge without first unmerging the more recent merges)
I gave full text of my message to Customer Service in PM with subject line "Frieda Kamm"
The more I think about it, the more I think it is probably not the bug I had seen before, but due to just doing an unmerge totally out of order. But either way hoping Customer Service will solve or send to programming and they will untangle.

Yes, I meant the fix for the unmerge. I don't have experience contacting Customer Service so I don't know how responsive they are.

Keep us posted!

There's a lot we can't really work on, and I'm generally hesitant to add documents and info, until the unmerge (and/or married-to-duplicate-of-oneself bug) is cleaned up.

The Death Record for David Bloom does not give a Birth Surname for his mother.
Where do we get the info that it is Kamm?

Private User 's family tree is the only place I recall seeing that David Walter Bloom's mother Frieda was born Kamm.

Private User , how did you learn Freida Bloom's maiden/birth surname?

We really don't know her last name without proof. Unless it is on something from Lithuania.

The two Frieda's have been merged back together by Customer Service, which eliminates the bug.
Rather than trying to unmerge again, it would probably be simpler to just create a new profile for Frieda.
Carole Kapp - do you want to do that, or do you want one of us to? Or??

Mike Stangel - Mitchell said he talked to you about Frieda Kamm. But you never weighed in here.
Had assumed you would have said something here if Mitchell had convinced you, but just in case:

It seems very clear that the Frieda Kamm who married Emil Kamm (and is the sister of Carole Kapp's great grandmother) is not the Frieda who married Herbert Bloom. {We have actually not been able to find any record for the birth surname of the Frieda who married Herbert Bloom)

Among the information we have is:
*According to Richard Kamm's WWII Draft Reg., he was born in Jan. 1879 in Bucharest, Roumania.
*According to David Walter Bloom's Naturalization Petition, he was born Nov. 1879 in "Kvno, Russia now Lithuania". and that was his last residence before coming to the United States.
*According to Paul Kamm's Declaration of Intention, he was born in Bucarest, Roumania in July 1883.
*According to Sarah's Naturalization Petition she was born in Bucharest, Roumania in 1892.

--if their mother is the same Frieda, then apparently she had a child by Emil Kamm in Bucharest in Jan 1879, then had a child by Herbert Bloom in Kovno in Nov. of that year, and later had more children by Emil Kamm in Bucharest.
Do you believe that happened, or do you agree they are two separate Frieda's or??

We know Mitchell disagrees, but he refused to respond here when asked
"Mitchell, what are the DNA matches that suggest that you are descended from Raphael Kamm? Who, how much shared cM, etc.?"
He didn't even respond to "how did you learn Freida (Kamm) Bloom's maiden/birth surname?" nor to " Mitchell - Did you ever obtain a copy of Mary Siegel's Death Record?"

It is definitely not just his tree that is affected by whether Emil Kamm's wife and Herbert Bloom's wife are the same or different people.
Unless we hear differently from you, I expect we will proceed with trying to separate the two families.

They cannot be the same person. Lois has proved this with records. Carole with family connections. Let us look elsewhere.

I think the two Friedas definitely different people. Would appreciate you making new profile for my Frieda Kamm. Thank you.

On the 1910 Census, Frieda is listed as having 6 born, 6 alive.
On that Census, 4 of those 6 are listed in her household:
Paul Kamm, 26 -- -- Sara Kamm, 19 -- -- Sam Kamm, 17 -- -- Adolph Kamm, 13
Richard is listed as brother on Adolph's obit - plus on the 1910 Census he, his wife, and children are living at the same address as Frieda, and he is the informant on Frieda's Death Record.
Do we agree he is one of her 6 children?

Is Jenny or Sol the 6th child, or???

It looks like Jenny (Kamm) Rosenberg Ross is probably one of the children. Her death record names her father as Emil Kamm: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QV9N-BC79

What information do we have about Sol? It is possible that Sam was originally a Shlomo and was recorded as Solomon/Sol at some point? Unfortunately (as regards this question), his gravestone doesn't give a Hebrew name.

There's also a Sol Kamm, son of Jacob Kamm and Minna Dobriner, b. ~1900, d. 1950 in Chicago. Obviously not a child of Emil and Frieda, but he shows up in the Chicago records.

And confirming that Jennie (Kamm) Rosenberg Ross is one of the children of Frieda and Emil, her obituary (Chicago Tribune, 27 July 1961, p. 19) mentions brothers Adolph and Richard.

Jennie's gravestone gives her Jewish name as Genendel daughter of Elia, which is consistent with Emil's Hebrew name on Paul's gravestone.

yes, Richard one of Frieda's 6 children. Jenny is 6th sib. She married Ed Ross. They had 5 children-Alice, Rosemary, Morton, Robert and Perry. I have this on a family tree given me by my 3rd cousin who is descendent of Frieda and Emil and their daughter Sarah.

Interesting about Jennie's gravestone. On my ancestral tree Rafael Kamm's mother is listed as Genendal Glucklich who was born in 1788 and died in 1843. So that may be Jennis's great grandmother and she may have been named after her. Very common to name children after deceaed grandparents.

Yes, that seems likely. Jenny Kretchmar Chaje Leah Kamm 's daughter, sailed to the US as Genita, which was probably also Genendel in Yiddish. Very plausible that the two Jennies were both named after their grandmother Genendel Glucklich.

I did a quick family search for Sam Kamm https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/LT17-C74 Lists alot of family that lines up with the Chicago Kamms
No hebrew on the stone - there is a picture.https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/212476502/samuel-kamm

Just found the Curator note by Customer Service on Herbert (Herzl) Bloom - are there other ones?

The first Frieda listed above -
Freida Kamm married to <private> Bloom - that spouse
is (a) Private who is the child of (b) Private who was the duplicate created of Herbert Bloom = Herbert (Herzl) Bloom who is mentioned in the Curator note on Herbert Bloom.
Did a search on David Walter Bloom, turns out
(a) Private is David Walter Bloom.
That would be a Duplicate of David Walter Bloom who is Child of Herbert (Herzl) Bloom and Freida (Kamm) Bloom and. Spouse of Clara (Ferrin) Bloom -- but Mitchell's re-doing of him to accord with Mitchell's theory of something.

The first Frieda listed above -
Freida Kamm married to <private> Bloom - is now deleted

Mike Stangel and Customer Service
There is now a Curator's Note on Herbert (Herzl) Bloom that says
"Please do not merge with duplicate brother Herbert Rosenberg Bloom -- we have split / duplicated the bottom of this tree in order to accommodate users who cannot agree about parentage further down."

And from the alternate /duplicate Herbert Bloom created for him, Mitchell (now appearing as Private User) has created another version of Frieda, Private
She and the duplicate Herbert Blloom are the parents of Mitchell's grandfather Private
And thanks to other profiles Mitchell created off them and merged into existing profiles,
we now have Sarah (Kamm) Bergsman with three parents - Emil Kamm and the Frieda Kamm who was married to Emil and never had a child by Herbert Bloom (Frieda Kamm (Never Wife nor Partner of a Bloom) )
and the Frieda who had a child by the duplicate Herbert Bloom created for Mitchell

Will you disconnect the Frieda who is the partner of the duplicate Herbert Bloom from Sarah (Kamm) Bergsman - or allow others to? Or??
There is absolutely no evidence that Herbert Bloom's partner was the mother of Sarah.
What there is is Mitchell's misunderstanding of DNA matching and Thrulines.
Not only is this wrong, but it is mucking up the Max Family of an active Geni user, Carole Kapp

To any that saw
"There is absolutely no evidence that Herbert Bloom's partner was the mother of Sarah.
What there is is Mitchell's misunderstanding of DNA matching and Thrulines."
and thought more details were needed for the second sentence and/or that I should have tried to elicit more details from him --

1) at one point Mitchell (as I believe he was calling himself then) was willing to provide details -- but it turned out the details were at least as consistent with the lineage suggested by documents (which Mitchell dismissed as "fraud") as they were with the lineage Mitchell was suggesting, sometimes much more consistent with the path shown by documentation

2) He was asked for details in this discussion - see https://www.geni.com/discussions/239814?msg=1517249 and his response was "I already submitted it to Mike Stangel with everything. " and he refused to provide any details in this Public Discussion, and shortly announced "GOOD BYE" - https://www.geni.com/discussions/239814?msg=1517352 - and changed his name

3) He claimed DNA / info from Thrulines supported his actions in another part of the tree, and when I asked for clarification of what he said - https://www.geni.com/discussions/241078?msg=1523112 - he failed to answer, then shouted at me, then said "Good bye!" - https://www.geni.com/discussions/241078?msg=1523200 - and once again changed his name.

My guess - and it is only a guess -- he got a DNA Match, looked at the Tree of his DNA match, saw his DNA match had an Ancestor Frieda Kamm -- he decided his ancestor Frieda (who probably did not have a Birth Surname at that time) was that Frieda Kamm, and he changed his Ancestry Tree accordingly -- after which, of course, Thrulines would be suggesting that this was probably how he was related to this match.

Thrulines makes suggestions of how one may be related -- but sometime folks think Thrulines is saying this is how you are related
(Sort of analogous to Tree Matches on Geni, where sometimes folks think Geni is saying "These two are a match" whereas Geni is really only saying check these two out to see if they are a match)

Mike Stangel - just making sure - you did understand - We were leaving the duplicate branch created for Mitchell alone, and he merged it into the branch we were working on

Mitchell merged the version of Sarah Bergsman (daughter of Private) and her daughter (granddaughter of Private ) -
Florence Miller - both of whom had been part of the branch that is duplicated for Mitchell's theory - with the versions that were part of the branch Lisa, Carole, and I have all been working on.
(eg I had added media to Sarah on Nov. 1 and 7, Lisa added a sister of Sarah on Nov. 7, etc)

CORRECTION - I had added media to Sarah on Nov. 1 and 10, Lisa added a sister of Sarah on Nov. 7, etc

Lisa added a sister because she found records from before they came to the US - including one for the birth of Syma in April 1881 in Lemberg, Galicia.
So now we have

According to Richard Kamm's WWII Draft Reg., he was born in Jan. 1879 in Bucharest, Roumania - his actual birth record shows him born in Jan. 1879 in Lemberg Gakicia
According to his Naturalization Petition, David Walter Bloom was born in Nov. 1879 in "Kvno, Russia now Lithuania". and that was his last residence before coming to the United States.
And Syma, was born in Lemburg, Galicia in April, 1881
Then additional children in Bucharest, Roumania.

Richard, Syma, and additional children after Syma to Frieda and Emil.
David Walter Bloom to Herbert Bloom and Frieda
And Mitchell's theory is that it is the same Frieda.

Carole (great granddaughter of Frieda's sister, who lived with her grandmother for a while, so heard a good bit about the family) is quite sure, based on family knowledge/ information that it is not the same Frieda. There are no records suggesting it is the same Frieda.
But technically, I suppose Mitchell's theory is not impossible.

I'm very sorry if I upset anyone by barging in, but I've been reading this discussing and feel the need to state that I agree with Lois here.

I just think it would be better if Geni used a higher standard than "not impossible" for the WFT, given how everything else can comfortably live in separate trees.