"Pépin" Carloman, King of Italy - rename

Started by Livio Scremin on Tuesday, June 29, 2021
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6/29/2021 at 7:21 AM

I ask for permission to rename to multilingual:
Using the display name and alias for the interested languages, and leaving the first baptism name in the name field.
(I have already filled in the alias fields, you can take a look)

6/29/2021 at 7:56 AM

while there may be better names for everyone, the revolving name syndrome just drives users like me crazy. It just makes one more
name I can't find. to me as a user, every name is like a street sign to get to the next street, and when someone with a better idea
changes the signs, I spend half a day trying to figure out if I made a mistake or if we are talking about teh same person.

if you have new names or better ideas put them in the a note box, or in the AKA box so we poor users can figure out it's just
a revisionist and is the same person we already know.

6/29/2021 at 8:06 AM

Pépin Carloman, rex Italiae seems to me to be an acceptable version of his original name in documents: He was baptised "PEPIN" in Rome 15 Apr 781 by Pope Hadrian,

6/29/2021 at 8:07 AM

Am I missing something?

6/29/2021 at 8:10 AM

I think it looks good. We are a multilingual platform. The tools are there.

6/29/2021 at 8:10 AM

Happy to remove Carloman if you're agreeing with this "Settipani commenting that his name was changed from Carloman but the primary source which identifies him by this name has not so far been identified. "

6/29/2021 at 9:25 AM

o.O everyone agree he was called first Carloman, after Pepin
I absolutely would not remove it,
"I would cover it" with the display name, together with the toponym with which it ended in history.
multiplied by the languages mainly involved (preview in aliases)

6/29/2021 at 9:43 AM

@Robert the multilingual helps you in everything you said,
(& yes "Alias - AKA box", as said it was the first thing I fixed, didn't you look?:)

I'll tell you more: it even ends up in the indexing of search engines, taking you to the same profile even if you search for it in different languages. (this is DONE:)

now the final gem would be the display name, for those who view GENI in the English international of course, but also for the native Franco, German, Italian, etc.

6/29/2021 at 9:44 AM

"Pépin" Carloman, King of Italy is a complicated 37th great grandfather of mine. I bow to the Professionals of Geni.Com for Pepin's name.

6/29/2021 at 10:51 AM

If those that like the idea of changing the names to another frequency of language. I would say, lets keep it simple to most common language (International, and it's initial profile creation), and if any of those want to see it different. Then include it to the overview tab in the profile of concern of the many other names that is used.

6/29/2021 at 1:33 PM

I like all the extra names so far. Thoughts / questions - without strong opinion.

  • for ordinary English speakers, always best to match Wikipedia names in display name, isn’t it? Currently showing “ Pepin of Italy”
  • It’s always difficult in Geni profiles to show same given name changes in same language, alas.. I tend to read left to right, so I double take (have to think about it) when I see Pepin Carloman. My inclination would be Carloman (name at birth) “Pepin” (best known as). But, I haven’t looked up similar enough situations to see what is most consistent for time & place, so don’t take this comment over seriously.
6/29/2021 at 11:55 PM

I'm not really following you, Livio

The "Pepin" Carloman solution was to stop him being mismerged into his brother- Pepin Hunchback - which happened even when they were both MPs. Now that we have Rel Lock it's not so much of an issue.

Here's what I think your solution might be, As per Medieval Naming protocols on Geni:

  • His documented name in the naming fields: Happy to have that in the order: Carloman Pepin with rex Italiae in the suffix. (I don't know that I'd call his job title a toponym)
  • In Display Name (if used): Pepin, king of Italy.
  • In multilingual translations each language can register the display name to read as he is known in their history books.
6/30/2021 at 12:06 AM

If all the Display Name translations are your doing> thank you. They look good.

6/30/2021 at 12:11 AM

If your issue is the "king of Italy" vs "king of the Lombards" > As he seems to have been documented as both, and more often as King of Italy, vis:

"He was crowned PEPIN King of Italy 15 Apr 781 at Rome[618], named King of the Lombards and installed at Pavia.. The 796 victory of "rex Pippinus" against the Avars led by "Cacanus rex" (which reflects the title "Khagan" not his name) is commemorated in a contemporary poem[619]. The Annales Fuldenses record that "Ehericum ducem Foroiuliensem, deinde…Pippinum filium regis" captured the camp of "Hunorum... At the partition of the empire agreed at Thionville in 806, Pepin was designated sovereign of Italy, Bavaria, Carinthia (except Nordgau) and Alemannia south of the River Danube. He subjugated Istria, the towns of Dalmatia, and Venice in [810][621]. The Annales Fuldenses record the death "810 VIII Id Iul" of "Pippinum filius eius regem Italiæ"

I'm inclined to leave it as is.

6/30/2021 at 7:15 AM

yes the multilingual AKAs, I made them yesterday.
Display name multilingual done now.

6/30/2021 at 7:33 AM

Only freedom that I have taken:
Even if the baptism did not take place as an infant, but as an older child, >Pepin< is therefore an official name that I have removed from the quotes and put in the 2nd name field.

I think the matter of "multilingual names" is painfully over for everyone.

I would also have the solution for the wedding of one of the daughters.
Marriage and kinship certain, uncertain and debated is only which of the daughters [TRUE?]

6/30/2021 at 12:04 PM

I'm not totally sure what you're saying about the daughters > you'll need to be more specific.

Glad we're all happy about the akas

Pepin doesn't become his second name, though - it takes over as his first name > hence using the first name field and the quotes.

6/30/2021 at 1:29 PM

first lines of his info about, widely described specified then quoted below and I suppose in various discussions.. summarized in one line:
-"One of his daughters married Lambert I of Nantes, though which one is contested."
(..I have TEXT-TAG the "X" solution:)

7/1/2021 at 10:58 AM

Ahh. Okay great.

7/1/2021 at 3:34 PM

well, considering that uncertain and debated is only which of the daughters married Lambert I, marchese and duke of Spoleto ..

in accordance with ML putting the profile " NN, one of the daughters of Pepin " daughter of Pépin, king of Italy ..next to all the sisters..
..we can establish the line also here on GENI, however without get unbalanced which exactly of the daughters she is.
(inside the first line undoubtedly clarifies the profile. Then below collection of all the documentation, & the various links, of who prefers one or the other)

[also Lambert I, marchese and duke of Spoleto node is locked.. and again in full accordance with ML a (C) can easily move she mother of his children (area now all full documented & illustrated)]

7/1/2021 at 3:55 PM

..instead regarding Pepin's partner: Therese Gondres I found and listed inside from what source she comes from, even it would suggest parents...

but nevertheless a couple of wrong homonyms are attached to her by unsorced son (I have also identified them among the MPs) which I suggest cutting out her son:
I left notes linck deduction and visual cues ..(Finish:)

7/2/2021 at 2:05 AM

Okay - it took quite a while, but I think I integrated your solution of a dummy profile that keeps the line going. I renamed her " NN, one of the daughters of Pepin "

7/2/2021 at 2:10 AM

I see no decent primary or any sources for Therese Gondres as his partner?

cf http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ITALY,%20Kings%20to%20962.htm#Pepin...

No sources are offered here: https://www.our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p527...., unless I'm missing them.

7/2/2021 at 6:14 AM

-"X" represents a "Incognito" of one of the 5 already present. (system already used elsewhere)

-"N.N" can be understood as another additional sixth daughter with no name. (PLZ, put back "X")

regarding the sources of the partner, that is what I found (before she was blank info-about in white)

7/2/2021 at 8:07 AM

I'm unhappy with X - it's not used in this part of the tree at all. Incognito isn't really the point here.

If you want to include a space-holder profile here, "one of the daughters of Pepin" and the CN explains it.

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