Agda "Caritas" Persdotter - Agda i porten???

Started by Reidar Holmsen on Monday, June 28, 2021
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6/28/2021 at 1:44 AM

I doubt very much that Agda /Agatha was ever called " Agda i porten". She was allegedly a daughter of Per. He on the other side was called "Per i porten". I think that the nickname "i porten" has been transferred to Agda / Agatha much much later.

Are there any sources?

Secondly I find it strange that it is stated "she was called Caritas because of her beauty. That is not the meaning of the latin word Caritas. Caritas would mean charity or something like that.

Undoubtedly she was beautiful and probably charming.

6/28/2021 at 1:46 AM

What is the source to the portrait? Is that a portrait of Agda Persdotter? Where can it be found?

Private User
6/28/2021 at 12:50 PM

That is not Agda in the portrait.

©Thyssen-Bornemisza National Museum, Madrid

https://www.museothyssen.org/coleccion/artistas/baldung-grien-hans/...

"Hans Baldung Grien was Dürer's most gifted disciple. This work is the only female portrait that has survived to this day. The influence of another great German master, Lucas Cranach the Elder, is evident in details of the woman's clothing and adornments, such as the feathered hat and the headdress made of pearl strands of hair. However, it is an absolutely enigmatic portrait in which all the identifications proposed by historians have been rejected. Currently, the trend is that it is probably an abstract representation, an ideal image or a personification, rather than a portrait of a specific character."

6/28/2021 at 1:23 PM

D Bruno! How nice!

My first thought when I saw the portrait was CRANACH! And I am amazed you could nail it to Hans Balding Grien.

Many thanks!

But what Icon should we use for her profile?

6/28/2021 at 1:26 PM

" an abstract representation, an ideal image" of a young jail-bait ?

Private User
6/28/2021 at 1:37 PM

It really does not feel Swedish in any way, does it.
But it did feel lika somewhat famous portrait.
I just googled the portrait.

I asked the uploader to take it down.
I replaced it with just a gray color for now.

Further down at that link there is a longer text in Spanish:

"
Hans Baldung Grien was Dürer's most gifted disciple. This work is the only female portrait that has survived to this day. The influence of another great German master, Lucas Cranach, the Elder, is evident in details of the woman's clothing and adornments, such as the feathered hat and the headdress made of pearl strands of the hair. However, it is an absolutely enigmatic portrait in which all the identifications proposed by historians have been rejected. Currently, the trend is that it is probably an abstract representation, an ideal image or a personification, rather than a portrait of a specific character.

This Portrait of a Lady comes from the collection of Count Dumoulin-Eckart, of Munich, in which it was until 1933. Acquired in the art market, it has been part of the Thyssen-Bornemisza collection since 1935, appearing in their catalogs since 1937 , when it was published as the Portrait of a Princess of Baden-Durlach. The painting was collected by Otto Fischer in his 1939 monograph of the artist. The panel is the only surviving female portrait of Baldung Grien, although two others are known from literary references and old reproductions. It is signed with the artist's initials, which form a monogram in the upper left corner; next to it appears the date, of which only the last three numbers are read.

This enigmatic portrait reflects the influence on Baldung of another great German Renaissance artist of also very personal temperament: Lucas Cranach, the Elder. In reality, this influence is so noticeable that one could better speak of a direct dependence on Cranach's models. This fact, pointed out by Koch, led us to compare our portrait with Cranach's Salomé , preserved in the Szépmüvészeti Múzeum in Budapest and dated around the same years. This Salomé de Cranach is installed in an interior open to a beautiful landscape through an opening to the left. The figure on Cranach's table is adorned with a greater number of jewels, highlighting two heavy chains on his chest. Lübbeke confronted him with another oil painting by Cranach, also from 1530, the Judithfrom the Jagdschloss Grünewald, Berlin. The parallels between our painting and this Judith are evident, both in the framing Baldung Grien chooses and in the clothing. In fact, a series of elements of the Judith de Cranach, such as the hat with feathers, the chain and the choker that adorn her neck or the headdress of pearl threads that collects her hair, are repeated, with some modifications, in this Portrait of a lady . Baldung, in this case, also omits the scenario where Cranach installs his Judithrichly attired, with sword in hand and holding Holofernes's head by the hair. In both cases, in the works of Budapest and Berlin, the features of Cranach's figure are more natural and less enigmatic than those applied by Baldung in this oil painting. The similarities are reinforced by the way the character is presented, half-bodied and with a slight turn of the head to the front.

Along with the dependence on Cranach models patented in this portrait, Lübbeke has also mentioned similarities with the Flemish Jan Gossaert, in terms of composition, and with the Dutch painting that would be, according to this historian, perhaps, the explanation of the soft modeling with which the face has been made. Our figure has been built with a very limited chromatic range where orange predominates, used for the headdress of the hair, the goldsmith ornaments and brocades of the suit, and the green, almost black, used in the velvets of the hat and the dress. Along with them, the whitish tone of the face stands out, with very slight shadows on the temples and on their profiles and whose whiteness barely contrasts with the white of the pearls that wears on the neck. On this woman's face, Baldung has highlighted the eyes,

Attempts to identify this woman have been unsuccessful. For a long time the work was considered a wedding portrait of one of the princesses of the Baden-Durlach house, but this identification has been rejected for chronological and historical reasons. Currently there is a tendency to think that, more than before the portrait of a specific character, we are before the image of an ideal or before the personification of a motif whose interpretation, for the moment, eludes us.
"

6/28/2021 at 1:52 PM

Judith by Cranach: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lucas_Cranach_the_Elder_-_J...

But there are many versions I believe

6/28/2021 at 1:56 PM

Judith, a beautiful Hebrew widow who entered Holofernes's camp, seduced him, then beheaded him while he was drunk. She returned to Bethulia with the severed head, and the Hebrews defeated the enemy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holofernes

(We are way off topic here :)

6/28/2021 at 1:56 PM

(THis with Judith and Holofernes is the old peoples "Kill Bill".

Private User
6/28/2021 at 1:58 PM

The influence in the clothes and jewellery is pretty obvious.

6/28/2021 at 2:07 PM

As you say - the influence is obvious. But it was interesting to read about Baldung Grierns friendship with Dürer. Personally I must say that Baldung Grien stands for for himself. Some of his portraits also remind me of the portraits of Luther, Bugenhagen etc. by Cranach

Hans Baldung Grien https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Baldung https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Baldung

6/28/2021 at 2:10 PM

If there was a portrait of Agda it would for shure have been destroyed.

6/28/2021 at 2:12 PM

@D Bruno Do you work with art and culture at this high level?

Private User
6/28/2021 at 2:20 PM

I like the Baldung Grien portrait better than the Judith portrait.
The face is more interesting. Almost asian looking on the eyes.

Private User
6/28/2021 at 2:24 PM

I did work in music for years and I have been involved in some art projects. Old oil paintings not so much.

6/28/2021 at 2:36 PM

Tänker på Helena Bergström

6/28/2021 at 2:38 PM

That eyeform would be fenno - ugric - Y-DNA N

Private User
6/28/2021 at 3:21 PM

Yes you can find "small" "fenno - ugric" eyes all over the world.
It is basically just about having a lot of upper eyelid fat.
Renee Zellweger/Helena Bergström eyes.
They don't "slant" upwards without makeup.

I do not agree that is the type of eyes we see in this portrait.

Bigger, heavily upwards-"slanting" eyes with pronounced double eyelids, without much eyelid fat, and without epicanthic folds, as in this portrait, are very rare outside east Asia.
Actually they are very rare even in east Asia without surgery/makeup.

Indeed "an abstract representation, an ideal image".

That does not rally exist like that in the real world.

6/28/2021 at 11:35 PM

Conclusion then : aliens?

Private User
6/29/2021 at 4:00 AM

Absolutely. Most definitely.

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