Bernard 'le Danois' de Pont-Audemer de Harcourt, vicomte de Rouen - Bernard the Dane

Started by Rodney Piper on Wednesday, June 16, 2021
Problem with this page?

Participants:

Showing 61-69 of 69 posts

Also, I disagree that tradition or common knowledge is "dangerous". Those things can be very beneficial to society.

The fact that they are mentioned in official church and state records is evidence that there was proof then.

There is proof that they existed; not that they were related

Debra, common knowledge is not dangerous, unless you sail to close to the edge and fall off!
And we all know that Harry isn't really Charles' son, right ;)

As mentioned by Sharon earlier, Dudo is the closest we have to a primary source, yet Dudo is most definitely not a primary source. He was a politically motivated chronicler writing several generations after the events, it is possible that Dudo spoke to someone who had actually met Bernard but this is far from anyone's definition of a primary source!

Likewise regardless of what, now lost and forgotten, records Louis XIV had access to he was not an impartial historian (ignore the philosophical debate as to whether such a beast exists) he was another politically motivated operator with reasons of his own for presenting the "facts" as he saw them, or wanted them to be seen, centuries after the events when there was no one around that would be able to naysay him even if they wanted to.

"And we all know that Harry isn't really Charles' son, right ;)"

You couldn't have picked a weaker example to support your argument, Alex. Tradition and common-knowledge would have that Harry IS Charles' son. Anyone who can't see it needs to have their eyes (and head) examined, and is actually bucking tradition not embracing it. Nor would I agree that "Harry isn't really Charles' son" is common knowledge, quite the opposite (and more reasonable) assumption actually is.

And if Dudon and Louis were politically motivated, one can argue that EVERYONE is politically motivated, which I wouldn't doubt for a minute.

Everyone is politically biased, whether that is their main motivator will vary.
Primary sources tend to not be biased, baptismal records, land charters, marriage contracts, tombs, etc may record events that have been brought about by political machinations but are in and of themselves factual records of events.

They said Bernard married a Sporte de Bourgogne and has a son Torf and a a child named Mathilde

Google search Bernard 'le Danois' de Pont-Audemer de Harcourt see the Wikipedia sidebar:

Bernard the Dane

Bernard the Dane was a Viking jarl of Danish origins. He put himself in the service of another jarl installed at the mouth of the Seine, Rollo. Wikipedia
Born: 880 AD, Circa District, Peru
Children: Torf le Riche
Grandchildren: Turold de Pont-Audemer, Turquetil of Harcourt

Enter the article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_the_Dane

It has been removed. No mention of a son, wife, mother, father as no one knows.

Then you have the very unreliable Find a Grave: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/176833577/bernard-le_danois

Bernard le Danois
BIRTH unknown
Denmark
DEATH unknown
France
BURIAL Non-Cemetery Burial
MEMORIAL ID 176833577 · View Source
MEMORIAL
PHOTOS 0
FLOWERS 14
Birth:880
Death: before 960

Bernard the Dane of Saxony married in 912 Sprota of Burgundy. They had a son, Torf.

The House of Harcourt is a Norman family, descended from the Viking Bernard the Dane and named after its seigneurie of Harcourt in Normandy. Its mottos were "Gesta verbis praeveniant" (Olonde branch), "Gesta verbis praevenient" (Beuvron branch), and "Le bon temps viendra ... de France" (English branch).

Bernard the Dane (French: Bernard le Danois) (c. 880 – before 960) was a Viking jarl (earl) of Danish origins. He put himself in the service of another jarl installed at the mouth of the Seine, Rollo (before 911). After the accords of Saint-Clair-sur-Epte that officially gave birth to the duchy of Normandy (911), Bernard converted to Christianity at Rouen the following year (912) and shortly afterwards received from Rollo the county of Pont-Audemer in Roumois (today in the Eure département) then, later, the city of Harcourt.

Under Rollo's son and successor Duke William, Bernard was charged at the beginning of the 930s with putting down the serious uprising led by a certain Riouf (a Norman from the west, who had besieged the Duke in Rouen). Around 935 he put down a revolt in Bessin and Cotentin by Viking communities completely independent from the young and fragile power of the dukedom, unlike the east of the duchy of Normandy where its ducal power was affirmed a little later.

Later, on William's premature death by assassination, Bernard became regent of the duchy of Normandy in December 942, beside Anslech de Bricquebec, Osmond de Conteville and Raoul Taisson.

In 945-946, he appealed to Harald Bluetooth and his Danes to defend the duchy when it was attacked by the Carolingian king Louis of Outremer and Hugh the Great, duke of the Franks. Louis was attempting to retake the lands of the west in Normandy that had been granted to the Viking bands thirty years earlier.

Bernard died a few years later (before 960). He is supposed to have been the ancestor of two great Anglo-Norman baronial families, the Beaumonts and the Harcourts.

Then links to: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/176834366/torf-le_riche

Then you get the French Wikipedia https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_le_Danois that states he had a son Torf this is wrong, all the other versions of Wikipedia say no children

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torf says the following:

Quelques historiens comme Jacques Le Maho l'identifient à Turstin le Riche, un grand propriétaire de la vallée de la Seine et possible beau-père de Robert le Danois4. D'autres ouvrages, moins fiables, verraient dans Torf le fils ou le petit-fils de Bernard le Danois, régent du duché de Normandie lors de la minorité du duc Richard Ier de Normandie.

Some historians, such as Jacques Le Maho, identify him with Turstin le Riche, a large landowner in the Seine valley and possible father-in-law of Robert the Dane4. Other works, less reliable, see in Torf the son or grandson of Bernard the Dane, regent of the duchy of Normandy during the minority of Duke Richard I of Normandy.

On my chart the father of Tort is unknown.

Regards Rodney

French wikipedia says possible father . Less reliable sources claim Torf as son or grandson or even possible in-law

Terry Jackson (Switzer) you Curate here - any thoughts?

Alex -- some agreement with you but I do believe most people driven and motivated by personal financial or monetary gain.
Even politics just a tool for that aim.
Eco or Climate change warriors most also just another opportunity to make a buck.
Rare to meet people here on GENI and GENI itself not driven by €£¥$.
Researchers have to satisfy the ones paying the bill and have to mould what they find to what the payees desire as the "truth "

Showing 61-69 of 69 posts

Create a free account or login to participate in this discussion