Alix de Thiembronne - David Bigelow Geni Curator

Hello Livio,
As I’ve said in the past, I use the trees of several enlightened persons on Geneanet to fill in blanks occasionally, and any of this is subject to discussion. Most of their work is sourced, this particular person is not, which is why I added the disclaimer. Trust but verify as they do contain errors and as is typical in genealogy, difference in opinion. They are tertiary to the secondary sources I use which are fully identified either in the About tab, the Sources tab and tagged to specific data. If you have specific evidence one way or the other regarding this person please post it so that it’s viability can be assessed and discussed. She was added with admittedly less than desirable information specifically so that other users could comment and collaborate. I’m not opposed to a civilized discussion of facts but this post appears to be nothing more than an attack on a source with no relevant evidence pertaining to either the source or the profile.

With regard to making the profile an MP, that is a curator function that has additional features that allow us to prevent erroneous merges and replacement of data by the uninformed user, all too typical in medieval Europe. All curators use this feature to control critical profiles. In the past you’ve shown a complete disregard of propriety in this area by deleting other users input you disagree with, importing images taken from entertainment/gaming website and using them as gospel... so I would suggest that “totally blocked” is a good thing in this instance.

I’m curious, do you possess any of these supposed credentials you cite as missing in others (I’m not even sure what they are other than being copied from the title page of a generic Geneanet profile). You need to be careful here, people who live in glass houses you know... You describe yourself as “ Svezzato come agente moda spettacolo pubblicita. Cresciuto come consulente finanziario assicurativo.. Intrattenuto 2 decenni nelle pubbliche relazioni notturne... Libero da schiavitu alcoliche, tabagismo, caffeine.. ..tradavo oro indipendentemente dai fusi, non disprezzavo lo shopping internazionale e praticavo golf ogni volta che mi girava.” I’m envious, I don’t get much golf in anymore, but I see no genealogical credentials listed. Expertise by the common user is not something often seen.

So, I would ask the following of you; first, please provide evidence and sourcing of any kind, I would like to know more about Alix de Thiembronne, and secondly, I doubt the other curators are much interested in this type discussion, airing of dirty laundry as it is, so feel free to use a personal message to me for concerns of this kind. I stand behind my work Livio, but please assist in improving what we know about Alix de Thiembronne.

If you’re interested this source might provide some clues. I’ve not reviewed it yet but note that the map shows Thiembronne in the geographic vicinity of the families associated with de Fiennes, to whom she purportedly married, who are part of a current study.

https://habitant.org/articles/Moreau%20and%20DuLong,%20The%20De%20M...

Isn’t http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Fiennes.pdf a student project? I believe George Homs or Victar had told me that, or perhaps JF Antoine. Lovely graphics, but since then, I’ve been cautious using it as a source.

I upload / copy - paste register reports all the time, to describe the family, correct / validate the tree. But no, it’s not a source, its a reference tool. And best ought to be used in conjunction with primary source and vetted secondary sources - and I do see Medlands referenced in the profile for Gilbert de Fiennes, seigneur de Bléquin So I know my 25th great uncle existed, and he’s got a list of references also. All good.

What supports the wife Alix?

So I’ve had a chance now to look at this a little. First, compliments, a remarkable amount of work filling in missing tree branches that were missing from Geni. Thats pretty exciting, and thank you.

I was able to answer my own question about Alix, and she’s spurious.

See this source:

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000175911674823&graph_node_id=profile-34776327629&mode=tagged

Wikipedia kindly translated for me:

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiembronne

At the end of the xii th century - beginning of xiii th century , Clerembaut Thiembronne is lord. His son is Guillaume de Thiembronne who marries Mahaut de Guînes, daughter of Baudouin II de Guînes. The couple remains without heirs and the title of Lord of Thiembronne will pass to the brother of Mahaut Manassès de Guînes [ 11 ] .

11. & 27. André Du Chesne, Histoire généalogique des maisons de Guines, d'Ardres, de Gand et de Coucy et de quelques autres familles illustres, Paris, 1632, lire en ligne. p. 77. https://books.google.fr/books?id=8wx-yCoHAIsC&dq=ardolphe%20de%20gu...

Erica,
No, it’s not a student project. Racines uses secondary sources in the French language, many of which are considered of historical significance and are part of BnF Galicia project, along with 800 medieval manuscripts, managed by the National Library of France. It’s the result of a national program in France begun in 1988 to digitize it’s cultural history. This includes some of the premier volumes on genealogy like the 15 volume Dictionary de la Nobelesse by François Alexandre Aubert de La Chenaye-Desbois.

Cawley himself uses some of these references in his work on MEDLANDS such as De La Morandière, Gabriel. History of the House of Estouteville in Normandy. A Paris, 1903 https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5608689r.texteImage. We don’t consider his work less reliable because he uses a book instead of a primary text.

And I don’t use it by itself, it’s only one of several sources I start from with French profiles. I try to have three corroborating sources for each and every profile, admittedly Alix has only one but I work in families, not in individuals.

Regarding Alix there are several sites, which btw I don’t use, that carry the line back to the 9th century. The seignuery of Thiembronne was one of twelve that fell under the lordship of Boulogne, which for a time belonged to Fiennes, making it not at all illogical that this marriage did existed. Thiembronne is likely an aka, the principles seem to be originally from the House of Bournel. There are two articles that I’m translating now that appear to shoot down an attempt to show a Royal connection but appear to be 14th century related, and a volume by André Du Chesne. Alix is a work in progress, I’m not sure her shown parents are correct. It was my hope that by adding the disclaimer I did would spur more collaboration, not complaining about its source which I said was singular.

Private User So since we have a source demonstrating by title inheritance that Guillaume de Thiembronne, seigneur de Thiembronne & Mathilde (Mahaut) de Guînes had no children, and the histoire Racine site shows Gilbert de Fiennes, seigneur de Bléquin with no wife, nor does Cawley show a wife for him, lets let Adelis de Thiembronne, dame de Tiembronne go. For my own tree - wait, this is my own tree ! :) - I would either delete my own profile, or if I want to revisit, disconnect from relationships, with links to where she could fit in profiles. I do this constantly, actually, and we need to be consistent, don’t we? Thanks, David, its a remarkable amount of work you’re doing, and glad to have a chance to contribute.

I wouldn’t be too fast however to consider her spurious because she doesn’t show up in a single source. As I said earlier I work with families, not individual profiles, so I would want to see he father and her children identified, or not, before saying that.

The French Wikipedia source identifies only Four males over a two centuries, part of the difficulty in tying down this family.

And don’t forget the name variations, Alix the day to be a nickname. The location of Thiembronne is SW of Saint-Omer, in Nord Pas-de-Calais, but still very close to the Belgian border whee there was no distinction at the time being French or Dutch, they probably spoke a common language and based on the work I’ve been doing there was there, as elsewhere in medieval Europe, a huge inter relationship between local families, ie kin groups

ALIX
Related Names
Diminutive Alison
Other Languages (Danish) Alice, Adelheid, Aleid, Aleida, Alida (Dutch) Adelaide, Alice, Alicia, Ada, Addie, Addy, Alease, Alecia, Aleesha, Alesha, Alesia, Ali, Alise, Alisha, Alishia, Alisia, Alison, Alissa, Alisya, Allie, Allison, Allissa, Ally, Allycia, Allyson, Alyce, Alycia, Alys, Alysa, Alyse, Alysha, Alysia, Alyson, Alyssa, Alyssia, Della, Elicia, Heidi, Lecia, Lesia, Lisha, Lyssa (Medieval French) Aalis

Wikipedia cites

André Du Chesne, Histoire généalogique des maisons de Guines, d'Ardres, de Gand et de Coucy et de quelques autres familles illustres, Paris, 1632, p. 77. https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000175911674823

My French is actually good enough to read it. No children.

Google translate

https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA1414&lpg=PA1414&dq=Clerembaut+T...

THIEMBRONNE . In Boulonnais . Porte d'Azur in the band of gold confined to 2 flenrs of lilies of gold . It was one of the twelve baronies of the county of Boulogne , there were two houses of this name; that of the first Sgrs Thiembronne died out at the beginning of the thirteenth century; the second, coming out of the Counts of Guines, left the name of Guines to take that of Thiembronne . From the first were the following characters: Gautier de Thiembronne who seals with his seal acharter of Libert, bishop of Cambray in 1077 , as well as Wiscard de Thiem bronne, at the request of Eustache , count of Boulogne . ( Carpentier ) . Humfroy de Thiembronne who seals with his seal the founding charter of the abbey of Auchy, by Gautier and Enguerrand, counts of Hesdin, year 1079. ( Cart . Of lad . Abb . ) ; Guy de Thiembronne, one of the main lords of the country, cited by Du Chesnethe year 1174; Baudoin of Thiem Bronne leaving for the crusade in 1220:
Clérembaut, Sr. Thiem Bronne, witnessed a foundation made at St-Wulmer Boulogne by Count Eustace in 1121. ( Arch . Of Cles Artois . ) ; he had a church built, the remains of which were seen for a long time in the wood of Thiem Bronne , where a Roman road passed; another Clérembaut, Sr de ' Thiembronne, knight, signs a foundation in favor of the abbey of St-Bertin, and lived in 1169; he is mentioned with his two sons in a charter of Philippe, count of Flanders, the year 1174; he is cited in the Cart. de Si - André - aux Bois with his sons Guillaume, Guifroy and Hugues, and Ade, dud wife . Guillaume, the year 1208. The same cartulary mentions Jean de Thiem bronne, 1201, and Eustache de Thiembronne, knight, 1251.

Guillaume, Sr de Thiembronne , eldest son of Clérembaut, is put by the hist. of Philippe- Auguste, among the knights bannerets of Boulonnais, he attended the battle of Bouvines in 1214, and died childless of Mahant, his wife, daughter of Baudoin, count of Guines, and of Chrétienne d'Ardres ( Du Chesne ), leaving as heir to his house, his sister Adeline, allied to Manassés de Guines who left her name and gave birth to the second house of Thiem bronne.

Manassés and his wife gave the abbey of Licques 30 mes. of marsh at Roricove, on Ardres, in June 1223. ( Tit . of lad . abb . )
The same Adelide where Aalis gave 40 mes. of wood at the abbey of St-André-aux-Bois, in 1264;

she married, in second marriage, Mgr Gislebert .... and was buried in the dud church. Se-André where we still saw in 1650, his epitaph on a wall: " Chy gist Aelis de Bléquin , formerly wife of Mgr Gislebert ... Jacques d'Averoust , knight , his nephew , son of Eustache de Thiembronne , his brother , buried near her .-

In 1240, Baudoin, Count of Guines, gave Adame de Thiembronne, his niece, the wood of Huonval which he had acquired from his uncle Manassés.

-In the abbey of St-André-aux-Bois, in Picardy, was the burial place of Robert de Bailleul, S. de Thiembronne, and Alix de Bléquin, lady of Thiembronne, formerly wife of Monsg Gilles de Thiembronne. -

The elder branch of this second house in Thiembronne died out in the person of Jeanne de Thiembronnewho brought the barony in marriage to Jean Bournel, Sr de Puiseux, living in 1350, whose descendants sometimes took the name of Thiem bronne. -

Guillemette Vieu The city was married about 1350 to Loys Mother of Thiembronne to Bauchain and Monchy, whom she had three son and two daughters and was money at the crest of mouths to the neatline of papegaux of Vert -hung and Berques of mouths , arms of the house of Bournel. ( Ms. de Du Cange . )

That was from “Recherches Genealogiques” O-Z, Volume 3. “Thiembronne.” Page 1414 - 1415.

https://books.google.com/books?id=DTFAyDFSjrAC&pg=PA1414&lpg=PA1414...

Also attached here:

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000175953843110

Now to match to profiles.

There’s match up or new profiles needed for the rest of the Thiembonne family. So far this is what we got.

Adelis de Thiembronne, Lady of Tiembronne
Gender: Female
Birth: estimated between 1092 and 1212
Death: after 1264
Ardres, Pas-de-Calais, Nord-Pas-de-Calais, France
Immediate Family:
Daughter of Clérembaud de Thiembronne, lord of Thiembronne
Wife of Manasses de Guînes, lord of Rorichoue and Tiembronne
Sister of Guillaume de Thiembronne, lord of Thiembronne

(This Alix had children)

Adelis de Thiembronne, dame de Tiembronne daughter of Clérembaud de Thiembronne, seigneur de Thiembronne sister & heir of Guillaume de Thiembronne, seigneur de Thiembronne wife of her sister in law’s brother, Manasses de Guînes, seigneur de Rorichoue et Tiembronne

This needs double check. Aelis had another brother? Then why did she get the property?

• Épigraphie du département de Pas-de-Calais, Volume 4. By Commission départementale des monuments historiques du Pas-de-Calais. Page 48-49. GoogleBooks Aelis, lady of Thiembronne, died November 7, 1264, "gist in the nearby Chapel of the tower, where his pourtraicture is still seen to this very ancient painted wall below of which some epitaph of two lines was written , but having little to extract only this first only : Chi gist elle Aelis de Blequin iadis femme Monseigneur Gillebert .... >>

“In the same Chapel viz à viz of the said Lady of Tiembronne, gist seemed to be the Body of Iacque Seigneur d'Aurehout Cheualier, Aisné son of Eustache de Tiembronne, brother of the said Aelis . » (SALLÉ, p. 75.)

Aelis de Blequin iadis femme Monseigneur Gillebert .... >>

http://fjaunais.free.fr/h0fiennes.htm

Gilbert de Fiennes, seigneur de Bléquin

Eustache II le vieil, Sr de Fiennes, (1130 - 1200) épousa Jeanne de Sainte-Aldegonde, (1130 - ?) (Gen. 25)

	- Eustache III, Sr de Fiennes, dit le Jeune, épousa Marguerite de Guines,

	- Enguerrand 1er, Sr de Fiennes, (1155 - 1218) (Gen. 24)

	- Gilbert, Seigneur de Bléquin,

	- Raoul, Sr d'Andres et de Flamerzelles, ep. Adélis de Campagne,

	- Adélis, femme de Baudoin, Sr de Hames, dit de Campagne.

So that might be the bingo! for the Gilbert married Alix.

They’re all good, Alix is the only confusion. Wonderful study of the mother Christine from 2019, I doubt many genealogists have seen this yet:

Christine of Ardres, Countess of Guines

https://scholarworks.wmich.edu/masters_theses/4732 Page 55-58

All the children are listed, and match Geni. Unfortunately she didnt carry on to the next generation but theres an ascendency chart in Appendix D.

Im pretty sure I attached or cited to all her children also:

• Histoire généalogique des maisons de Guines d'Ardres, de Gand et de Coucy et ... De André Du Chesne. Her children: Page 74-77. GoogleBooks Her ancestry: Page 80. GoogleBooks

More sources have been added to the family of Boudewijn van Guines, comte de Guînes & Christine of Ardres, Countess of Guines and also Baldwin ll’s mistress(es) unknown mistress(es) & their children.

Matches Medlands and the original MP notes.

Assistance welcome for the next generations.