Elisabeth Shaw - Wrong Parents/dates

Started by Sharon Doubell on Monday, May 24, 2021
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5/24/2021 at 7:03 AM

Despite comments in some of the Abouts, the Elizabeth Shaw who was James V's mistress gave birth to James Stewart Abbot of Kelso in c 1529. She could not have been the daughter of Marjory Kickcaldy who has a charter of liferent that mentions her son in 1558 (https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Shaw-7875)

cf Elizabeth Shaw, Countess of Crawford and Elizabeth Shaw, Countess of Crawford and Elizabeth Schaw of Sauchie

Marjory Kirkcaldy and Marjory Kirkcaldy

James V, King of Scots

James Stewart, Commendator of Kelso and Melrose

5/24/2021 at 7:15 AM

It seems to be posed in the 'Shaws of Sauchie' images on https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Shaw-7875 that James V's mistress, Elizabeth Shaw of Sauchie (https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm#JamesVdied1542B), must be the sister of Sir Alexander Schaw of Sauchie and the daughter of Sir James Schaw of Sauchie & Alison Hume

5/24/2021 at 7:16 AM
5/24/2021 at 7:21 AM

So, despite the About - the Elizabeth Shaw, Countess of Crawford who married Robert Gib of Carribber was not James's mistress.

5/24/2021 at 7:27 AM

And whether she also married Henry Lindsay, 13th Earl of Crawford or that was a different Elizabeth Shaw, daughter of James Shaw of Sauchie (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Lindsay,_13th_Earl_of_Crawford) is an open question, as far as I can see.

5/24/2021 at 7:29 AM

And not, as stated in the About, a given. (As far as I can see - open to correction).

5/26/2021 at 3:26 PM

The Elizabeth Shaw, Countess of Crawford who married Henry Lindsay, 13th Earl of Crawford is a later woman than James’ mistress. She had a relationship to Queen Anne of Denmark, and so did Mary Schaw

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_of_Denmark

I am finding this blog informative.

5/26/2021 at 4:50 PM

Does this chart make it look like there were “two” James Schaws, sons of Alexander, one natural, and one born son of Elizabeth? I dont think thats right based on notes.

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000147639149829

5/26/2021 at 7:19 PM

So I believe Elizabeth Schaw of Sauchie is with the correct parents now, & it fits that its this Elizabeth who married Robert Gib of Carribber

Her namesake Great niece is many years later. Elizabeth Shaw, Countess of Crawford

5/26/2021 at 9:27 PM

And here’s our confirming evidence for the relationships. In summary:

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000175847591899

Life & Times of Robert Gib, lord of Carriber. Page 223. https://digital.nls.uk/histories-of-scottish-families/archive/95248...

Elizabeth Schaw MP
Gender: Female
Birth: circa 1510
Sauchie, St Ninians, Stirlingshire, Scotland
Death: 1559 (44-53)
Scotland
Immediate Family:
Daughter of Sir James Shaw, of Sauchie and Alison Hume
Wife of Robert Gib of Carribber
Ex-partner of James V, King of Scots

5/26/2021 at 11:46 PM

Thanks Erica.

Still trying to check this "Does this chart make it look like there were “two” James Schaws, sons of Alexander, one natural, and one born son of Elizabeth? I dont think thats right based on notes.

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000147639149829

5/27/2021 at 1:22 AM

Erica Howton I can't find the profile for the other 'natural' James Shaw. Am I missing something?

5/27/2021 at 1:44 AM

I think the chart is wrong and theres only the one James. Two sons were legitimized in 1546, James and Patrick. John (by Elizabeth Cunningham) was the “legal” son and heir, but the family business of Master of the Wine Cellar went to oldest son.

5/27/2021 at 1:51 AM

Regarding which Elizabeth is the mistress of James V, doesn't this suggest in the last paragraph that it's the one who was the daughter of Sir James Schaw of Sauchie

"7. (Sir) James Shaw of Sauchie .. There is a charter in the Register of the Great Seal to Marjory Kirkcaldy, spouse of James Shaw of Sauchie in liferent, and to James Shaw, her son and heir apparent, heritably of the lands of Coldoun, Cavilstoun, and Brunthill, in the shire of Kinross, on resignation by the said James Shaw of Sauchie, dated 2 May, 1558. (Ibid. Lib. 31, No. 421.) James Shaw of Sauchie had a charter from James VI. to himself and Marjory Kirkcaldy, his spouse, in liferent, and to James Shaw, their son, in fee of the barony of Sauchy, elated Apud Castrum de Stirling, 4 August, 1578. (Ibid, Lib. 35, No. 548, and Lib. 36, No, 586, and Writs of Sauchie.) John Shaw, son lawful to ane right honourable man, SirJames Shaw of Sauchy, knight, is named in 1582. (Writs of Sauchie.) " Will Shaw, Master of the Wark, is cal'd brother to John Shaw of Broiche in 1582, in a charter to him by James Shaw, appearand of Sauchy." (Ibid.) [Crawfurd, in his Notes of Sauchie Writs, says it was this Sir James's daughter who was the king's mistress [query, Sir Alexander]. Elizabeth Shaw had several children by the King James V., the " Gude man of Ballengeich." 1 532, a son was born [see Treasurer's Accounts, April 2, 1532]. This son was afterwards James, Abbot of Melrose, his Tutor, the famous George Buchannan. Abbot James died 1 558.] (Lord Cathcart.)" https://archive.org/details/anent1884/page/111/mode/1up pp109-111

ie Elizabeth Shaw, Countess of Crawford

5/27/2021 at 1:53 AM

RE: I think the chart is wrong and theres only the one James. Two sons were legitimized in 1546, James and Patrick. John (by Elizabeth Cunningham) was the “legal” son and heir, but the family business of Master of the Wine Cellar went to oldest son.

Oh, I understand you. Yes I agree with you that the chart is wrong.

5/27/2021 at 2:45 AM

Remember that there are 2 Sir James Schaw’s of Sauchie. The one who married Alison Hume died 1528 - Sir James Schaw of Sauchie - and was succeeded by his son Alexander (died 1547). Sir Alexander Schaw of Sauchie Had a sister Elizabeth and a son James, but no son Alexander. Elizabeth who married Robert Gib of Carribber died 1559: she’s the same generation as King James V (they were together when he was a teenager - so she couldnt have been much younger). So this seems the only possible Elizabeth. The countess of Crawford died in 1644, so she was not having the Kings son in 1532 (known birth date, there are payments recorded to his nurse).

5/27/2021 at 2:54 AM

Good point.

5/27/2021 at 2:30 PM

Thank you so very very much Ladies for giving this attention. Whatever the outcome. Thank you so very very much. And Sharon, I say my prayers for your family. Thank you Erica for helping.

5/27/2021 at 2:42 PM

I'm not great at researching as you two do, but wow, very intense on what you do. It's neat how you two analyzing all of this. Again, thank you for trying to fix the history.

5/27/2021 at 9:26 PM

:-)

5/27/2021 at 11:43 PM

This one was fun! Except everyone has the same names and no dates, and the sources talk backwards.

5/29/2021 at 3:08 AM

Oh, dear. Looks like my source for the Robert Gib of Carribber family flawed, and Wikipedia (without citation) says Elizabeth, King’s Mistress, died in 1536.

Review of “The Life and Times of Robert Gib“ by Sir George Duncan Gibb, Bart., of Falkland and of Carribber (1874)

https://books.google.com/books?id=H-EiAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA417&lpg=PA417&d...

5/29/2021 at 3:10 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gibb_(courtier)_

John Gibb of Knock and Carribber (c.1550-1628) was a Scottish landowner and courtier.

Carribber Castle, drawn by Alexander Archer, May 1837

He was a son of Robert Gibb and Elizabeth Schaw. His mother is sometimes said to have been the Elizabeth Schaw who a mistress of James V of Scotland and mother of James Stewart, Commendator of Kelso, but she died in 1536. He was however a kinsman of the Master of Work, William Schaw and Elizabeth Schaw, Countess of Annandale.

——

If this is true, we’re missing an Elizabeth Schaw.

5/29/2021 at 3:49 AM

Damn :-)

5/29/2021 at 10:57 AM

Heres the good doctor who tried to relate himself as descended from half brother of King James V’s son.

I so want to do his tree now.

http://internatlibs.mcgill.ca/Gibb.htm

In his later years, as well as publishing several papers on longevity and (under the pseudonym Carribber) a geology book for “young persons” dedicated to his daughter, Ricarda Cecilia (28), Gibb became obsessed with tracing his decent from the Scottish family of Gib and establishing his claim to the defunct baronetcy of Falkland and Carribber — a pursuit that resulted in some scorn. As noted in one of his obituaries, “unfortunately he left the beaten track he had so far trod so well and devoted the remaining years of his life in seeking after a bauble which, when found, was worthless” (8, p. 529). Gibb published two pamphlets on this genealogical research (29, 30) and a book in 1874 (31); sadly, these publications sullied his considerable reputation. The eminent Edinburgh historian Aeneas J. G. Mackay reviewed the book at some length for the literary journal Academy, noting,

"It is, under the disguise of a family history, an attempt to construct a family, and establish a title to a baronetcy which would at once be rejected if presented to any competent Court. (32, p. 417)

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A cautionary tale!
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Will try to find a citation for that death date of the King’s mistress, but meanwhile, I’m disconnecting her from the Gibs.

On reflection, it doesn't make a lot of sense that Alexander’s sister married a “stirrup man.” John Gib’s sister Elpseth made hats.

5/29/2021 at 12:49 PM
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