NN - NN alias "Ternois di Friuli"

Understanding Medieval Latin is a unique specialty. I'm certainly no expert in it, although I use a technique for translating the texts with google that works somewhat better than feeding full blocks of phrases and paragraphs into the program (when I can remember to do it this way): what I do is translate one word at a time, separately, in addition to the usual method. It helps put it all into context. Also there is a Latin translator that supposedly translates the Medieval forms (not sure how successfully, though).

https://www.jstor.org/stable/25831494?read-now=1&refreqid=excel...

https://www.lexilogos.com/english/latin_dictionary.htm

The Lommegau is the northern part of what was later the county of Namur. It was united with it in the 10th century.

‘Morini ’ was never a city, it was the name of a people. The two most important cities were (by its modern names) Boulogne and Thérouanne, neither of which was in Artois but somewhat to the west. They were most probably a people of Celtic origin, but after the Viking period little had remained of their cultural identity.

KR, Carl Gustav Verbraeken.

Thanks Debra and Carl.
I see that parts of Swabia were in what is now Switzerland. Interesting what translations reveal.

WRT Peter's translation of Eckhart here:

" Besides, the Testament (will) (of) Everhard, (which) Adalroch his nephew signed, whose regard of Everhard inhabits the same account (the will document). And certainly it is (a) parallel, or perhaps his father Henry (the) Swiss, considering how again in the case of Folcardi Mirac.
St. Pertini forced out Count Henry, whereby afterward, Folcuinus (was/became) Bishop of Morino (in the) year 839

And Carl's point about Morini and Therouanne above

I found Folcuin, a BISHOP of MORINIE/MORINS [THEROUANNE] here: https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/Reims.htm

1. FOLCUIN, son of HIERONYMUS & his wife [Ercheswinda/Ermentrudis] (-Esquelbecq, Nord 15 Dec 855, bur Sithiu). The Vita Fulcuini names "matre Erkensinda, patre Hieronimo, quorum prior de gente Gothorum…alter {Karolo] regis avunculus" as parents of "Folcuinus"[847]. The cartulaire of Saint-Bertin names "Hieronimus pater...Ermentrudis genetrix beati præsulis Folquini"[848]. Bishop of Morins [Thérouanne] [end-816/early 817]. "Folquinus...Morinorum episcopus" addressed the monks of Saint-Bertin by charter dated 20 Jun 839[849]. “...Fulcoinus...Tarwannensis ecclesie...episcopus...” subscribed the record of the concile held in Paris in [846/47][850]. “...Folcoinus episcopus...ecclesie Morini...Unfridus Morinensis ecclesie episcopus...” subscribed the record of the concile held at Soissons in Apr 853[851].

The source is Saint-Bertin (Guérard) - which the French have digitized here: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k29276b/f3.item

Context for which is: A note on the charters of St Bertin's Abbey
Much of the evidence below is taken from the records of St Bertin's Abbey in St Omer, of which the family of Gundred and Gerbod were advocates. The relevant material is all in print, but sadly the way in which it was published could scarcely be bettered as a recipe for confusion.

The original records of St Bertin were lost in the aftermath of the French Revolution. Fortunately the material survived in a number of copies. Unfortunately, the copies were published in inverse order of value. The first edition was M. Guérard's Cartulaire de l'Abbaye de Saint-Bertin (Paris, 1841), which was based on a surviving cartulary dating from about 1500. (Guérard's edition must have been the source of the St Bertin's material printed by Stapleton in his paper on Gundred and the Warennes, in the Archaeological Journal, vol.3 (1846), although he does not appear to state this.) Subsequently, F. Morand published Appendice au Cartulaire de l'Abbaye de Saint-Bertin (Paris, 1867), which contained corrections to Guérard's work, as well as some additional material, based on a mid-12th-century cartulary. Finally, D. Haigneré published Les Chartes de Saint-Bertin (Saint-Omer, 1886), taken from a copy of the abbey's records made by Dom Charles-Joseph Dewitte in the late 18th century. This copy is not flawless, as its author was not an expert in medieval palaeography, but was carefully made, and had the virtue of being based in many cases on the original charters, and in others on Abbot Simon's cartulary, older than those edited by Guérard and Morand, but since lost. Unfortunately, as so much had already been published, for most of the early charters Haigneré did not publish the entire text, but only corrections and additions to Guérard's edition.

and here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annales_Bertiniani

In this regard, primary sources for UNRUOCH (Unruoch, marquis & duke of Friuli) for this period show:

Comte en Ternois 839. "Unrici comitis" signed a charter dated 20 Jun 839 issued by "Folquinus…Morinorum episcopus"[Saint-Bertin (Guérard) Liber II, IV, p. 85. ].

"Undrici comitis" signed a charter dated 29 Jun 839 issued by "Hugo abbas…Sithiensis"[Saint-Bertin (Guérard), V, p. 88. ].

Monk at St Bertin [Settipani (1993), p. 257 footnote 455. ].

Map of The Ancient Diocese of Thérouanne, which may have been based on the territory of the Morini. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morini#/media/File:Belgian_Medieval_D... Notice position of Ternois

So, by 839 when we know Unrouch is Count in Ternois - Folquinus / Folcuin is the Bishop of Morins [Thérouanne] [from end-816/early 817] (https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/Reims.htm)

Also in 839 the abbot of Sithiensis/Sithiu - which becomes St Bertins - (https://www.academia.edu/40653231/Introduction_to_my_book_From_Sith... ) is called Hugo

Eckhart's point about "Folcardi Mirac.St. Pertini forced out Count Henry, whereby afterward, Folcuinus (was/became) Bishop of Morino (in the) year 839"

seems to refer to a hagiography? by a descendant of Bishop Folcuin about the "Life and Miracles of St. Bertin" (https://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/arthur-folkard/a-monograph-o...)

The question is who was the Henry who was forced out to be replaced by Folcuin - and how does this parallel the situation of Everhard and his nepos Adalric?

Some understanding of the Carolingian use of lay abbots is probably crucial here, but right now I'm late for my son's birthday lunch :-) ....

Sithiu- a wealthy community in the N of the Frankish kingdom (about 14km N of Therouanne) - had an abbey with two churches at the time of the death of its 2nd abbot, Bertin (661-698) in c 698. [Momelin was 1st abbot 649-661] There was a secular church Notre Dame, and a monastic church Saint-Martin on a marshy island in the river of Aa.

In the 820s Louis the Pious took a more direct interest in the community, and (after Fridegis's reform*) it's head was usually a powerful magnate, often a member of the royal family. Charles the Bald, king of the west Frankish kingdom (r840 - 77) granted the abbacy to Lotharingian elites in an attempt to increase his support in the middle Frankish kingdom.**

*When a (Carolingian) ruler determined that an ecclesiastical community was living irregularly, they could intervene by appointing a courtier like Fridegis to 'correct' the practices of the monks. These interventions allowed rulers to gain more direct control over an institution and its resources.

**Carolingian monarchs used both lay abbacies and the appointment of loyal courtiers as abbots to divert monastic resources to their followers. Lay abbeys began as a way to protect monasteries from elites who seized monastic wealth and properties. The Carolingians appted their followers as 'lay abbots' - laymen who exercised the legal rights of abbots- ostensibly to put secular violence at monasteries' disposal. Lay abbots did not usually live as monks. Rather, they installed a monk as 2nd in command to maintain religious discipline.
but bec each monastery had to support its lay abbot as well as the soldiers in his retinue - the position often bec a way for kings to control monastic wealth and finance their armies. Kings might also appt loyal followers as regular abbots, who could then divert monastic wealth to royal allies in much the same way.

From David DeFries - From Sithiu to Saint Bertin - Hagiographic Exegesis and Collective Memory in the Early Medieval Cults of Omer and Bertin, pontifical Institute of Mediaeval Studies, Canada 2019 pg 5 (Copied and paraphrased)

In the 820s Louis the Pious and the Anglo Saxon courtier Fridegis reformed Sithui - replaced a third of the monks frm the original abbey with canons, assigned them to the church of Notre Dame, and gave them a third of the abbey's propoerties. He also reduced from 83 to 60 the no of monks remaining in the monastic complex at the church of Saint-Martin where Bertin lay. However, both canons and monks were under the supervision of one official- an abbot or provost. In 944 the count of Flanders Arnulf I the Great & the Lotharingian abbot Gerard of Brogne reformed Sithui again, making the chapter and abbey two different institutions.
From David DeFries - From Sithiu to Saint Bertin - Hagiographic Exegesis and Collective Memory in the Early Medieval Cults of Omer and Bertin, pontifical Institute of Mediaeval Studies, Canada 2019 pg 2 (Copied and paraphrased)

Fridegis is abbot from 820 - 34. Folcuin apparantly launches an attack on him in his hagiographic 'Gesta', calling him 'the first destroyer of the regular life [ie based on the rule of Benedict] and the destroyer of the fraternity between both ecclesiastical communities. He calls Fridegis's abbacy a tyranny. Recent scholarship questions whether Fridegis - who governed both the monks and the canons - would have allowed open competition between them.

From David DeFries - From Sithiu to Saint Bertin - Hagiographic Exegesis and Collective Memory in the Early Medieval Cults of Omer and Bertin, pontifical Institute of Mediaeval Studies, Canada 2019 pg 12-14 (Copied and paraphrased)

Returning to Eckhard's Latin translation by Peter:
"Besides, the Testament (will) (of) Everhard, (which) Adalroch his nephew signed, whose regard of Everhard inhabits the same account (the will document). And certainly it is (a) parallel, or perhaps his father Henry (the) Swiss, considering how again in the case of Folcardi Mirac. St. Pertini forced out Count Henry, whereby afterward, Folcuinus (was/became) Bishop of Morino (in the) year 839. (A/The) signed letter testifies how the Bertinian Monks were restored as Custodians of the Basilica of St. Mary."

It seems perhaps that Unruoch was forced out of the Sithui abbacy according to Folcuin III, monk at Saint-Bertin 's (d975) hagiography ‘Miracles of St Bertin’ and eventually replaced by the hagiographer's ancestor, Bishop Folcuinus [Folcuin, Bishop of Morins [Thérouanne] ] (d 855)

Is this in line with what Defries describes here: "Lay abbeys began as a way to protect monasteries from elites who seized monastic wealth and properties"? [Could the elite here be Unruoch? d <853]
After all, by the 1820s Sithiu housed 130 monks and controlled about 100,000 ha of land.

[And ultimately Unruoch’s descendants will be 3 successive generations of Abbots at St Bertin: Firstly his son Adalhard: Adalhard, abbé de Saint-Bertin († April 3, 864 ), then his grandson, Adalhard (acc to wikipedia)Adelhard von Burc, abbé de Cysoing († after July 1, 874) and then his other grandson Raoul / Rudolf Rodolf, Abbot of Cysoing and St. Vaast († May 1, 892 ) https://de.zxc.wiki/wiki/Abtei_Saint-Bertin - both the sons of St Eberhard, margrave & duke of Friuli

So if we to return to the primary sources for UNRUOCH (Unruoch, marquis & duke of Friuli for this period they show:

Comte en Ternois 839. "Unrici comitis" signed a charter dated 20 Jun 839 issued by "Folquinus…Morinorum episcopus"[Saint-Bertin (Guérard) Liber II, IV, p. 85. ]. This is Folcuin, Bishop of Morins [Thérouanne] Charles Martel's grandson and Charlemagne's cousin

"Undrici comitis" signed a charter dated 29 Jun 839 issued by "Hugo abbas…Sithiensis"[Saint-Bertin (Guérard), V, p. 88. ]. This Hugo Abbas Of Sithiensis is Charlemagne's son: Hugo, Archchancellor of the Empire

Monk at St Bertin [Settipani (1993), p. 257 footnote 455. ] I cannot find the Settipani original, but it would be interesting to know if this references Unruoch becoming a secular? monk in St Bertin before he was ousted by Folquinis (as Eckhard tells us) or afterwards in old age, and before/ while his son Adalhard, abbé de Saint-Bertin († April 3, 864 ) is Abbot there?

Notice also that while Eckhart seems to use Folcardi’s ‘Mirac. St. Bertini’ as a legitimate source it must be remembered that the hagiographer’s ancestor - Folcuin, Bishop of Morins [Thérouanne] himself was a grandson of Charles Martel , and that Charles II "the Bald", Western Emperor (840-77) exploited monastic estates even more directly than his father Louis I, The Pious (d840) had.

We know that the (820-34) activity of Abbot Fridugis , who was a high-ranking advisor to Louis the Pious , is described very negatively (and possibly ahistorically) by the chronicler Folcuin in Gesta Abbatum Sithiensium. He calls him the first destroyer of the regular life [ie based on the rule of Benedict] and the destroyer of the fraternity between both ecclesiastical communities; and describes Fridegis's abbacy a tyranny. This negativity possibly reflected the conflict between (the then, usually lay) monks and the chapter of canons (secular priests living communally) who participated in the Marienkirche, which was adjacent to the monastery, and was supposed to be preferred by Fridugis.The later cathedral of Saint-Omer developed from the St. Mary's Church, donated by the founding bishop Audomar, in which his burial place was also located . (paraphrased from https://de.zxc.wiki/wiki/Abtei_Saint-Bertin.)

The chapter of canons attached to Notre-Dame and the monastic community of Saint-Bertin argued about which of them had been founded first, which deserved the place of greater honor in ritual processions,and even which one possessed the body of the town’s namesake, Omer. Folcuin III, monk at Saint-Bertin 's hagiographic record of his ancestor is written subjectively from a position within this dispute.

To what, then, is Eckhart comparing the ‘Everard’s (d867) nepos Adalroch’ testament when he alludes to parallels with “The signed letter [that] testifies how the Bertinian Monks were restored as Custodians of the Basilica of St. Mary*."?

Is the parallel in the way the letters are signed or in something to do with the relationships between the men/church?

Might this provide a hint to why he thinks Adalroch is a child of a son of Unruoch, marquis & duke of Friuli also called Unruoch - for whom we have so far found no primary sources?

*[St Mary’s Church it seems is the original NotreDame Defries describes. It was adjacent to the monastery, came to be controlled by the priestly canons - not the monks and was later replaced by St Omar’s Cathedral in which he was buried.]

Based on Ekkhart's pedigree chart for the family (same page), he has nephew Adalroch not as a son of Unruoch, marquis & duke of Friuli . This Unruoch would have been Adalroch's grandfather. His father is instead supposedly a brother of St. Everard named Unroch.

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000175027103895&amp;...

And there is a great deal of information in this paper with regard to Odelricus as a petitioner for these church institutions. There is a 2-page chart listing 30 different petitions, beginning on page 6. You might make better sense of it than I could.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2865414?read-now=1&amp;refreqid=excels...

This paper is freely available to read online, in its entirety.

"Fulcoinus qui et Wasingo" is the first one on the list. The petitioner was Bertilla, but as Odelricus was involved in so many petitions to king Berengar, he might have been a witness for it.

Peter Joseph Forsling using your transcription and this Latin lemmatiser https://outils.biblissima.fr/fr/collatinus-web/, as you suggested - I re-worked the translation:

"Everhardi etiam Testamento subscripsit Adalroch nepos ejus, cujus respectu ad Everharduin habito eadem ratio erit.

PF:‘"Besides, the Testament (will) (of) Everhard, (which) Adalroch his nephew signed, whose regard of Everhard inhabits the same account (the will document).

SD: Also in Everhard’s will is written that Adalroch is his grandson/descendent/nephew, who he cares for (keeps/manages) .

Et vero simile est, patrem ejus suisse Hunricum vel, ut etiam in Folcardi Mirac.S. Bertini expressum est, Henricum Comitem, qui cum Folcuinus Episcopus Morinorum anno 839.

PS:And certainly it is (a) parallel, or perhaps his father Henry (the) Swiss, considering how again in the case of Folcardi Mirac.St. Bertini forced out Count Henry, whereby afterward, Folcuinus (was/became) Bishop of Morino (in the) year 839.

SD: Similarly, his father or Swiss Hunricum, as noted in Folcardi’s Miracles of St Bertini about Count Henricum, supported Folcuinus Bishop of Morinorum in 839.

Bertinianis Monachis custodiam Basilicæ S. Mariæ restitueret, litteris subscripsit, ut testis."

PS: (A/The) signed letter testifies how the Bertinian Monks were restored as Custodians of the Basilica of St. Mary."

SD: The Bertinian monks were restored as custodians of the Basilica St Mary, in a letter/record written, & witnessed.

Please won't you take a look at the one difference which has Unruoch either being ousted by / or supporting Folcuinus as Bishop. Am I missing something big here?

Sorry, Debra - cross posting. Will look now.

RE: 'Based on Ekkhart's pedigree chart for the family (same page), he has nephew Adalroch not as a son of Unruoch, marquis & duke of Friuli . This Unruoch would have been Adalroch's grandfather. His father is instead supposedly a brother of St. Everard named Unroch.
https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000175027103895&amp;...;

Yes, that's what this says (obviously a little obscurely ;-) "he thinks Adalroch is a child of a son of Unruoch, marquis & duke of Friuli also called Unruoch - for whom we have so far found no primary sources"

RE: And there is a great deal of information in this paper with regard to Odelricus as a petitioner for these church institutions. There is a 2-page chart listing 30 different petitions, beginning on page 6. You might make better sense of it than I could.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2865414?read-now=1&amp;amp;refreqid=ex......
This paper is freely available to read online, in its entirety."

All I get is a pay wall, whatever I try :-(

Sharon, after you register with jstor as an "Independent Researcher" (free) and log in (I log in with my google account), you should be able to read the whole thing free. You would only have to pay to download it. (The fact that I won't pay to download it is the only reason I haven't copied it, lol.)

:-) Okay, that worked.
I'll scan it now quickly - but I need to go to bed as I've been at it all day and I'm teaching tomorrow :-/

cf Berengar I, emperor of the Romans

cf an English translation of The Will of Eberhard and Gisela, c. 863 http://turbulentpriests.group.shef.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/12...

only mention of Adalroch is at the end:
I, in the name of God Count Eberhard, [p. 5] with my wife Gisela, have made this testament of
division between our children, whose names are these: Unroch, Berengar, Adalard, Rodolph,
Engeltrude, Judith and Heilwich, in the presence of our faithful followers who were present, whose names are these: Adalroch our nephew, Wellebert the priest, Werimbert, Lanfrid, Drumar, Uto, Diso, Engelhad, Heribert, Otpert, Fredeco. Made in the county of Tarvisiano, in our estate at Musestre, in the reign of the august Louis (II), in the 24th year of his reign, Christ willing.

Private User your Odelricus (Marquis) petitioner of Berenger in 911-918 could be our Adalric (Udalrich) working with his cousin Berengar I, emperor of the Romans

An interesting connection might be made if he's the son of the sister of Eberhard who married Suppo III, duke of Spoleto given that Berengar I, emperor of the Romans?through=6000000005936931116 's wife Bertila of Spoleto is the daughter of Suppo II, duke of Spoleto (first cousin of Suppo III, duke of Spoleto)

The only snag is that Berenger had his wife killed in 915

Sharon, I saw your post right after finding this Geni profile (by simply googling "son of unroch III"), so hopefully we are making progress of sorts:

Unroch comes

I will now refocus my attention toward that branch of the Italian nobility, and see if I can find anything more specific.

A nice timeline, for what it's worth.

https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/ItalySpoleto.htm