NN - NN alias "Ternois di Friuli"

I see it. Thank you - No sources :-/

If birth is 839, that's far later than some of his siblings (and begs the question of the same mother) although Eckhard has Adalhard born 844- 20yrs before his death in 864 as Abbot - which we know he had been for 3 years already. Is it likely he was made Abbot at 17?

We need someone with Latin to tell us whether this

"Everhardi etiain Teltainento fubfcripfit Adalroch nepos ejus , cujus reſpectu adEverharduin habito eadem ratio erit. Et veroliinile eſt, patrem ejus fuiſſe Hunricum vel, ut etiain in Folcardi Mirac. S. Pertini expreffum eft,Henricum Comitem, qui cum Folcuinus Epifcopus Morinorum anno 839. Bertinianis Monachis cuſtodiam Bafilicæ S. Mariæ reftitueret , litteris fubfcriplit, ut teſtis."

references more that the "Adalroch nepos noster” in Eberhard & Gisele's testament. Perhaps it gives us a clue about where he gets Unroch/Hunricu as father?

He actually does offer sources in the explanations included for his reasoning on the same page as the pedigree chart, but obviously it is written in early Medieval Latin. It essentially tells us that Ekkhart's education, experience, and study of the problem led him to the conclusion shown in his chart. I'm not going to double-check Ekkhart's work. Perhaps someone else would like to attempt it.

Qua ratione etiam Everardus filius Hunorici erit, cujus & nomen filio primogenito, ex more illorum temporum, indidit. Hunroci nepos in Annalibus Laureshamensibus vocatur Albigarius anno 817 in Dalmatiam cum legatis Græcis ad componendas ibi controversias de finibus missus. Natus igitur est sive ex fratre sive ex sorore Unroci. Everhardi etiam Testamento subscripsit Adalroch nepos ejus, cujus respectu ad Everhardum habito eadem ratio erit. Et verosimile est, patrem ejus suisse Hunricum vel, ut etiam in Folcardi Mirac. S. Bertini expressum est, Henricum Comitem, qui cum Folcuinus Episcopus Morinorum anno 839.

By the way, on the same page Ekkhart tells us that Gerold was related ("family") to Berengar. Taken in context, it can only mean that he is also related to St. Everard and Adalric.

In Vita Gerardi Abbatis & fundatoris Broniensis mentio fit Berengarii Comitis, qui Gerardo modo nominato cognatus & familiaris fuit. In Charta Ludovici Reg. Germaniæ anno 908 data, quam Miræus Not. Eccles. Belg. c. 47 exhibet, Berengarius hic Comes pagi Lummensis sive Namurcensis vocatur.

So, even if we agree to all these premises, Geni still has no profiles for either one (St. Everard's brother, Unroch; and Gerold I's nephew, son of Udalroch: Gerold III).

___________________

While I'm on the subject, in "Guelphish/Welfish Origins Volume I" by Friedrich Schmidt (1900), the author explains why there are so many early Medieval name variations within these lineages. The detailed philological and historical information is interesting, and here is just a small excerpt (translated, for those of us who are not fluent in German language):

"In addition, Henrich appears altered to Hunroch, especially in Swabia; likewise Adalrich - Adalroch; Chadaloh / Cadolach; Hilderich - Hiltiroh; Rothar - Roderich - Chrodhoch."

And Schmidt (whose work is also richly enhanced with source citations) agrees with Ekkhart about St. Everard having a brother named Unroch.

https://books.googleusercontent.com/books/content?req=AKW5QacIo2W_4...

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Die_Anf%C3%A4nge_des_welfische...

Why does Schmidt say he agrees?

Regarding name variations, I'm sure a lot of it depends on the native language of the authors writing the names, the way that conventional spellings of names evolve over time within specific regions (or families), and common mistakes. (I know I sometimes quite inadvertently misspell names along with other words).

But although the variations can be confusing or misleading, there are ways to keep us anchored in fact: basically, cross-referencing them with verified dates, locations, titles, and kinships. Even so, if I were an early Medieval genealogist, I'd probably want to utilize some serious spreadsheets or something to keep track of all that data.

Quoting Schmidt again (crudely translated, of course):

The name Ulrich appears in an abundance of variants, sometimes even abbreviations and distortions, as the example of the Alsatian Duke Adalrich = Eticho I teaches). It appears Adalrich Odalrich Udalrich also abbreviated in the forms Atich Eticho Utich, Ato Eto Hito Oto Uto, Hatto Hetti, Hitto Otto Utto, Ado Eddo Ido Oddo Udo, Azo Ezzo (Hessi Hesso) Uzo, and Vadalrich Wido Vodo Guido; plus the feminine forms of the name: Ada Edda Ida Oda Voda, Ata Hitta Itana Ota Uta, Adelaïs Ethel Iduna Odilia Udilhild. The same abbreviations, especially Azo Ezzo Uzo, which stand for Adalrich Odalrich Udalrich, also represent the names Adalhart and Adalbert, who alternate between themselves?).

Re "By the way, on the same page Ekkhart tells us that Gerold was related ("family") to Berengar. Taken in context, it can only mean that he is also related to St. Everard and Adalric"

Do we know which Gerold he is talking about?

Looking at Cawley, combined with all the other evidence, my understanding is that it was Gerold III (grandson of Gerold I and Imma/Emma).

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SWABIAN%20NOBILITY.htm#GeroldUdalr...

GEROLD [I] (-after 1 Jul 784). Graf im Kraichgau: "Geroldus comes et conjux mea Imma" donated property "in pago Creichgowe in villa Ziuternheim et in Odenheim" to Kloster Lorsch by charter dated 30 Jun 779. "Geroldus comes" donated property "in loco…Stainbura" to Kloster Lorsch by charter dated 1 Jul 779. "Geroldus et conjux mea Imma" donated property "in pago Wormat. in Eichinen et Mettenheim…" to Kloster Lorsch by charter dated 1 Jul 784. m IMMA, daughter of NEBE [Hnabi] Duke of Alemannia & his wife Hereswint --- (-798). "Imma" daughter of "Nebe" is named by Thegan. Her marriage is suggested by Thegan's Vita Hludowici Imperatoris which names "Hildigardam [wife of Charles I King of the Franks] quæ erat de cognatione Gotefridi ducis Alamannorum" and specifies that she was Imma's daughter. "Geroldus comes et conjux mea Imma" donated property "in pago Creichgowe in villa Ziuternheim et in Odenheim" to Kloster Lorsch by charter dated 30 Jun 779. "Geroldus et conjux mea Imma" donated property "in pago Wormat. in Eichinen et Mettenheim…" to Kloster Lorsch by charter dated 1 Jul 784. The Annales Alamannici record the death in 798 of "Imma". Graf Gerold [I] & his wife had six children:

a) GEROLD [II] (-killed in battle 1 Sep 799, bur Augia).

This Gerold was the heroic figure who fought the Avars with Erich the Friuli. His brother,

b) UDALRICH [I] (-[824]). The Gesta Karoli names "Oudalrico" as "fratri magnæ Hildigardæ". "Uodalrichi comitis" donated property "in pago Alsacinse…" to Fulda by charter dated 31 Mar 778 which names "Imma genetrix [sua]". Graf im Alpgau und Breisgau 780/81. Graf im Hegau 787/91. Graf im Thurgau 787. "Ruadkerus" donated property "in inferiore Lengiuuanc et in Entingas" to the monastery of St Gallen by charter dated 26 Aug 798 "sub Odalrico comite". Graf on the north bank of Bodensee 805/17. "Uodalrichus comis" donated property "in pago Alsacinse in villa…Heinhaim" to Fulda for the soul of "germani mei Uotoni" by charter dated 1 May 803, signed by "Vodalrichi…Beboni Geroldi Vdilrichi Ratberti cum filiis suis qui consenserunt…". The Traditiones Fuldenses record the donation of “Vdalrih comes de Alsatia” of property “in Scastolfesheim” for the soul of “Ottone fratre suo”. Graf in Alsace 817. m ---. The name of Udalrich's wife is not known. Graf Udalrich [I] & his wife had [five] children:

Their second child was the Gerold III who was involved with Balderic in their efforts again to secure the borders against foreigners.

ii) GEROLD [III] (-after 826). "Uodalrichus comis" donated property "in pago Alsacinse in villa…Heinhaim" to Fulda for the soul of "germani mei Uotoni" by charter dated 1 May 803, signed by "Vodalrichi…Beboni Geroldi Vdilrichi Ratberti cum filiis suis qui consenserunt…". Einhard names "Geroldus comes" as one of the 15 witnesses of the testament of Emperor Charlemagne dated 811. Einhard's Annales name "Geroldum comitem" as imperial legate to Italy in 815. Einhard's Annales name "Bertricum palatii comitem" sending "Baldricum et Geroldum comites" to fight the Avars in 826. Einhard's Annales names "Bertricum palatii comitem et Baldricum et Geroldum comites" as imperial missi to "Bulgarorum regem" in 826

Indeed, this Gerold III was the nephew of Hildegard (wife of Charlemagne). And he had a brother named Udalrich II.

Does "In Vita Gerardi Abbatis & fundatoris Broniensis mentio fit Berengarii Comitis, qui Gerardo modo nominato cognatus & familiaris fuit." refer to Gérard of Brogne https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A9rard_of_Brogne?

And here: Berengar van Namen, Comte de Namur - The Vita Gerardi Abbatis Broniense records that "comes Berengarius Nammucensi castro præsidebat" and that he took Gerard under his protection[10].

From MedLands (keeping in mind that Gerold III was Charles the Bald's first cousin once removed):

The county of Namur lay within imperial jurisdiction and was part of the duchy of Lower Lotharingia. The pagus Lommensis (Lommegau, in German) was the predecessor of the county of Namur, although it is not certain that the two were precisely co-extensive. The division of Lotharingian territories agreed 8 Aug 870 between Ludwig II "der Deutsche" King of the East Franks and his half-brother Charles II "le Chauve" King of the West Franks allocated "…comitatum…Lomensem…" to King Charles.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NAMUR.htm#_Toc57978401

Sorry, I went off to make you a Gerold III
Gerold III

Gerold III is Giséle of Cysoing's first cousin once removed.
Giséle of Cysoing
→ Louis I, The Pious
her father → Hildegard of Vinzgouw
his mother → Udalrich I of Vinsgau, Count of Argengau Pannonien of Breisgau of Bodensee, de Flavigny-sur-Ozerain
her brother → Gerold III
his son

I saw that ! :)

But dates seem to me too early to be likely to be on Eberhard & Gisele's testament?

Udalrich II, Graf im Breisgau

I don't believe it was that Adalric. The one on the will has been described in at least two-three significant ways:

1. son of St. Everard's sibling (gender unknown, could be sister or brother, various sources)

2. son of St. Everard's brother, Unroch (per Ekkhart and Schmidt)

3. son of Gerold or Gebhard (per Wikipedia, I think), who was presumed to have married a sister of St. Everard.

Keeping in mind that "our nephew" Adalric (witness to St. Everard's will) was closely related to King Berengar I (first cousin?), there was an Odelric/Odalric who was Berengar's chamberlain (? "count of the sacred palace") and also described as a "marquis of Friuli or Milan" (there has been some study of his exact title, I've yet to look up and read).

I don't know how, but this paper on jstor might be helpful. It is a great paper, in any case. Odelric/Odalric is mentioned numerous times, and there are sources to corroborate that this person (who died ca. 924, around the same time that Berengar I met his own demise) carried a lot of influence with the king, often (sometimes in concert with Grimaldi) signing petitions requesting gifts for various charities, etc.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2865414?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents

"The Family Politics of Berengar I, King of Italy (888-924)" Barbara H. Rosenwein

Okay, my Latin is not good - but is better than "Google Translate".

First off, lots of old documents write an "s" that looks to modern eyes like an "f". That happened here. Secondly, sometimes an "m" in an older script can look like an "in". That also happened. So what I think your Latin actually said (untranslated) was,
"Everhardi etiam Testamento subscripsit Adalroch nepos ejus, cujus respectu ad Everharduin habito eadem ratio erit.
Et vero simile est, patrem ejus suisse Hunricum vel, ut etiam in Folcardi Mirac.
S. Pertini expressum est, Henricum Comitem, qui cum Folcuinus Episcopus Morinorum anno 839.
Bertinianis Monachis custodiam Basilicæ S. Mariæ restitueret, litteris subscripsit, ut testis."
Throw that to any translator you can find - beware there may be other transcription errors.

My best stab at translating gives this:
"Besides, the Testament (will) (of) Everhard, (which) Adalroch his nephew signed, whose regard of Everhard inhabits the same account (the will document). And certainly it is (a) parallel, or perhaps his father Henry (the) Swiss, considering how again in the case of Folcardi Mirac.
St. Pertini forced out Count Henry, whereby afterward, Folcuinus (was/became) Bishop of Morino (in the) year 839. (A/The) signed letter testifies how the Bertinian Monks were restored as Custodians of the Basilica of St. Mary."
So the sentence in reference to the Swiss Henry is very obscure; some context is missing or it's a bad translation (see above). Is there a Swiss Henry who is father of Everhard or of his nephew? Did that (Swiss?) Count Henry have designs on being a Bishop and get deposed by St. Pertini?

There is an historical St. Bertin the Great (namesake of the Bertinian Monks in our text?), who began evangelizing in Morini, a town of Artois (Morino in our text?) in 637, where later a Cathedral was built devoted to Our Lady (later becoming the Basilica of St. Mary in our text?). See https://catholicsaints.info/butlers-lives-of-the-saints-saint-berti...

PS - "Everharduin" should be "Everhardum" in that first sentence.

PPS - "Henricius" in the text is likely a Latinization of "Unroch" in prior comments, the father of Eberhard, who apparently died/was buried at "St. Bertin Abbey, Saint-Omer, Pas-de-Calais, France," according to the Geni entry at Unruoch, marquis & duke of Friuli

Thank you Peter - that will help a lot.

Debra - are we only looking for Gerold because of something you saw on Wikipedia? What was it?

Oh, I see now why I couldn't find it. Wikipedia removed the page since I first saw it about three weeks ago. It was essentially this:

"Udalrich I, count in Alamannia (fl. 778–814), son of Gerold of Vinzgau"

So, although at the time it motivated me to check out the Gerolds (along with Gebhard and a wide assortment of people with similar names) -- after finding it my extensive search history I realize now that we can disregard it.

Not completely ruling out any marriages between a Gerold and sibling of St. Everard. But it does appear much less likely now, after reviewing what is left of the actual Wikipedia entry I had seen.

And I'm not sure those were the original dates on the page I read before it disappeared, although it certainly is possible. What is left of the page is noted at the top of the list given here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulrich

I know I must have read something somewhere that made me consider the possibility of a marriage between a daughter of Everard and a "Gerold" or "Gebhard". I'm not really sure if this obsolete Wikipedia entry is it, but it's all I can find at the moment. I should have it bookmarked somewhere, so I'll keep an eye out for it.

This is just some more info for the Odelrico who was so closely associated with Berengar I (the date of death matches, anyway).

UDALRICH [V] ( --[27 Mar, 30 Sep or 8 Sep] 924). There is no proof of a connection with the preceding families but this is suggested by his name and the similar geographical area of activity. Charters dated 10 May 905 and 24 Feb 909 recording donations to St Gallen are dated to "sub comite Odalrico"[218]. "Chuonradus…rex" granted property "in loco Munichinga in pago Chlethgeuue" to Kloster St Gallen by charter dated 11 Mar 912 at the request of "comitum quoque Erchangarii et Chuonradi, Odalrici, Hugonis"[219]. "Chuonradus…rex" made donations by charter dated 5 Mar 912 with the consent of "fidelium nostrorum comitum vero Sigihardi, Arnolfi, Erchangarii, Odalrici, Perchtoldi, Chuonradi, Herimanni, Luitfredi atque Iringi"[220]. "Chuonradus…rex" granted property "in pago Tuhrlamensi in comitatu Odalrici…in loco Helfotesuuilare" to Bishop Salomon by charter dated 3 Oct 912[221]. "Chuonradus…rex" confirmed privileges to Kloster Murbach by charter dated 12 Mar 913 with the consent of "fidelium nostrorum…Erchangarii, Chuonradi, Hugonis, Ottonis, Heinrici, Bopponis, Udalrici, Eberhardi"[222]. "Oudalrich quidam comes de Karoli prosapia" is named in the Chronicle of St Gallen, which also names his wife and their two sons[223]. The Annales Necrologici Fuldenses record the death "924" of "Uodalrih com"[224]. The necrology of St Gall records the death "VI Kal Apr" of "Uodalrici benigni comitis", "II Kal Oct" of "Uodalrici comitis" and "VIII Id Nov" of "Uodalrici benigni comitis"[225], one of which could refer to Udalrich [IV] and Udalrich [V]. m WUNDELGART, daughter of EKKEHARD [I] & his wife --- ([885/90]-). The primary source which confirms her parentage and marriage has not yet been identified. Her birth date range is estimated from the likely birth date range of her supposed mother, assuming that the origin shown here is correct, and the likely ages of her children. "Wundilgartam Henrici regis de filia neptim" is named in the Chronicle of St Gall, which also names her husband[226]. The same source in a later passage names "Ekkehardo…diacono et Purchardo puero post abate consobrinis suis"[227]. As Wundelgart was the mother of Abbot Burkhard, this gives the essential clue to her origin. Graf Udalrich [V] & his wife had [six or more] children:

a) UDALRICH [VI] [Outzo] (-25 Aug [950/57], bur Lindau Frauenkloster). The Casus Monasterii Petrishusensis names "Outzo comes qui habitabat apud Brigantium" as a descendant of "Oudalricus" (nephew of King of France, see above), and his wife "Diepirgam"[228]. The primary source which confirms his parentage has not yet been identified. Graf im Bregenz.

b) BURCHARD (-9 Aug 975). The Casuum Sancti Galli, Continuatio I, Ekkehardo IV names "Ekkehardo…diacono et Purchardo puero post abate consobrinis suis"[229]. The Casuum Sancti Galli, Continuatio I, Ekkehardo IV refers to Abbot Burkhard as "nepotem meum", referring to Emperor Otto I[230]. Abbot of St Gallen234 958, resigned 971[231]. The necrology of St Gallen records the death "V Id Aug" of "Purchardi…abbatis"[232].

c) ADALHARD (...) "Adalhardum qui Gallo Altstetin post tradidit" is named as son of "Oudalrich and Wundilgartem" in the Chronicle of St Gallen[233]. The commentary calls him "Adalhart comes Buchhorni" and also names his son and brother[234]. The Casus Monasterii Petrishusensis records that "Adilhardus comes" donated property to "nepoti suo beato Gebehardo epicopo"[235]. Graf im Thurgau 920/[970]. m ---. The name of Adalhard's wife is not known. Graf Adalhard & his wife had one child:

i) RICHERE (...) The Casuum Sancti Galli, Continuatio I, Ekkehardo IV names "camerarius…suus Richere, fratris quidem filius", referring to Burkhard abbot of St Gallen[236]. Monk at St Gallen, and camerarius, son of Adalhard234.

d) WITO (...) The primary source which confirms his parentage has not yet been identified. 913.

e) daughters... The Chronicle of St Gallen refers to unnamed daughters of "Oudalrich and Wundilgartem"

______________________________________________

It appears probable that Gerold and his son were closely related to the family of Graf Gerold [I] & his wife Imma (see Chapter 4).

1. GEROLD [IV] ( --after 852). A charter dated 8 Feb 838 recording a donation to St Gallen is dated to "sub Keroldo comite"[263]. "Engilperti atque Cundperti diaconi ac nepotis sui" donated property "in pago Rotagewe in villa…Skefouua" to "Monasterium Maninseo" by charter dated 852 witnessed by "Kerolt comes, Kerolt filius eius"[264]. m --- . The name of Gerold's wife is not known. Graf Gerold & his wife had one child:

a) GEROLD [V] ( --after 21 Mar 890). The primary source which confirms his parentage has not yet been identified. Ludwig II "der Deutsche" King of the East Franks donated property to Kloster St Gallen which had been taken by "Geroldus comes et potestati Zurigaugensis comitatus", by charter dated 26 Feb 875[265]. A charter of Emperor Karl III dated 17 Nov 887 relating to the restoration of Kloster Reichenau names "comes…Keroldus…cum coniuge nostra Hilthigarda"[266], it being assumed that the latter is an error for "coniuge sua". "Arnolfus…rex" granted property "in pago pago Quinzingouue in comitatu Hunolfi" to Kloster St Emmeran by charter dated 21 Mar 890 which names "Engildeo comes, Odalrich comes, Meginhart comes, Chunipercht comes, Kerolt comes, Rumolt comes, Geio comes"[267]. m HILTIGARDE, daughter of ---. The primary source which confirms her marriage has not yet been identified.

______________________________________________

https://oldnoblefam.tripod.com/germany07b.htm

Just some more interesting history I recently discovered. pp. 50-51

http://real.mtak.hu/20927/1/Szokekotet_angol_u_085622.294918.pdf

The last links to a paper by Béla Miklós Szőke "The carolingian age in the Carpathian basin"
Permanent exhibition of the Hungarian National Museum

Private User Re: https://www.geni.com/discussions/230564?msg=1470248 Can you figure out The Swiss Henry from Peter Joseph Forsling 's translation?

Swabian Unroch.