NN - NN alias "Ternois di Friuli"

Your recently added name "Ternois di Friuli" was fictional. I reverted it.

And your demand that a managed profile be isolated from the tree as fictional - when it's pre-existing position as a NN child of Unruoch is corroborated by primary sources is unreasonable, and puts your motives in question.

If I may...to lower the temperature, I’ve done a little research on the issue. Bottom line, I don’t recommend changing NN to Ternois de Fruili.

Disclaimer: previous comments in this thread limit their sourcing to Wikipedia so I will for simplicity sake do the same, however there needs to be much more in depth research on this issue beyond Wikipedia

NN at the Geni link has no information, and is identified by Cawley as a child, it is not certain that NN is even female unless one accepts the qualifying supposition that Cawley identifies. NN has a sister, also NN who lived 829-900, so using those as the dates we have to work with...

NN is purportedly the daughter of Unruoch II. He would be a member of the Unruochings dynasty. The progenitor Hunroch, was styled count of Ternois, and “received the march of Frioul from its creation in 837 by Lothair I” (but with which title as he is not listed in the dukes and margraves of Fruili on Wikipedia).

The county of Saint-Pol-sur-Ternoise, in very Northern France, so far northern that during this time frame it was controlled by the counts of Flanders [1]. Prior to the existence of the county of Saint Pol it was known as the county of Ternois [2]. The counts of Flanders were also counts of Saint Pol beginning in 862 with Baldwin I bring the 1st count of Saint Pol.

The name “Ternois” therefore appears to be a toponymic that preceded 862.

Geni does not style Unrouch II as count of Ternois. He died in 853 so he could conceivably have been styled count of Ternois, but there is no listing for these counts in Wikipedia.

Wikipedia does show a daughter Ternois of Fruili, b. 825, as is being argued, however this person is identified in red text, a tool Wikipedia uses when they have no page for such a person, meaning by inference that they know nothing about her. It should be noted the same holds true for her purported husband, also unknown in Wikipedia.

In conclusion I personally find it highly unusual and therefore hard to accept that a toponymic, which may have still been in use at the time of her birth if 825 can be confirmed, would be given to a child to use as a given name. This child is so obscure that few of the better known sources can identify her with any certainty. I would therefore NOT recommend changing the profile from NN to Ternois de Fruili without at least two additional legitimate sources that confirm her as such.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counts_of_Saint-Pol
[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Saint-Pol

Side bar:
On a side note, there is an image being used in this branch on several profiles purported to be the coat of arms for the Unruochings. These arms are totally bogus and can be inferred so from their source! Fandom.com is not a genealogy site nor is it a history or heraldry site (although it has snippets copied from Wikipedia). Fandom advertises itself as a “global entertainment media brand powered by fan passion. The fan-trusted source in entertainment, we provide a home to explore, contribute to, and celebrate the world of pop culture”. There are hundreds of websites that deal with heraldry and they should be consulted instead. While heraldry is not an exact science, it deserves more than a quick internet search with copy and paste results. This image is just awful speculation and should be removed.

Thank you for that David.

Would be very happy for you to remove those coats of arms as well.

I don’t know if it goes on this discussion, but this, to me, is an area of interest.

NN

The Italian encyclopedia is rather more certain than Medlands of origins as “sister of ...” but doesn’t attempt a name.

https://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/supponidi_%28Dizionario-Biogra...

My Chrome does an automatic translation. I’m sure there are areas that ‘melt’ wrong but it’s a great read nonetheless. Geni tree and notes agree so far on what I’ve looked at.

David, your assistance de tagging amateur arms and re tagging to better ones is always appreciated.

That reference is to this daughter: NN who married Mauring's son.

This is not the profile in dispute here

Medlands says: http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#DaughterofC...
The wife of Suppo III is shown in Europäische Stammtafeln[623] as the daughter of Unruoch but the primary source on which this is based has not yet been identified. It is probably speculative, based on the name of his son who was called "consanguineus" of Berengar I King of Italy in the latter’s charter dated 12 May 890.

Yes, I would struck that the Italian Encyclopedia seemed rather more definite than Medlands on Suppo’s wife than Medlands - “sister of Marquis of Friuli Everardo“ - so wanted that discrepancy noted.

The other NN seems resolved to me.

Would struck = was struck. Sorry.

Not a discrepancy. We have this daughter. Her gender is unequivocal.

Yes, I’m sorry, I’m being confusing.

What I was trying to get across.The NN under discussion had an unnamed sister who married Suppo lll.

Cawley wrote: “It is probably speculative ...”

The Encyclopedia is more certain that she married Suppo lll.

That is the “discrepancy.“. It’s minor. I should have started another discussion to point it out.

The Encyclopaedia isn't citing sources - that makes it less certain.

There’s a page of sources cited. :). I take it you’re looking for primary evidence (as per Cawley). But, of course, he hasn’t found any as yet (if exists, or still extant, or never existed) - and speculative is an evaluative term. I really was wondering “why” the difference in evaluations, and I’m not familiar enough with when and why Cawley would use the word speculative. I don’t think it’s based on lack of primary sources.

The page of general sources tells us nothing about this particular 'fact'. This encyclopaedia uses a narrative technique that is obviously aimed at telling a story to the lay person. It isn't surprising that it sounds positive, because it isn't in the arena of academic research and debate. which is what we need.

Sure, but it tells us where to look. I’m appreciative of the references given - and to try and understand the use of qualitative terms.

But I shouldn’t try to overparse what Cawley wrote.

When the time comes for a serious study of the Suppo area, I hope we look at some of the references.

Would be interested if you did. Right now I don't see any reason to remove it.

Thanks Private User and Erica Howton -- it's very helpful to get a few more sets of eyes on the problem. It sounds like we need to stick with the recommendation from Sharon and David to leave NN as-is, at least until better evidence can be found.

Thank you, Mike Stangel

I’ve been working with a manager who likes to take assignments, her results are good, I’ll ask her to take a deep dive and see what she can find.

Regarding the other NN daughter (not the one Livio renamed Ternois) that Erica raised and we're now talking about:

My rule of thumb in these cases is that anything Cawley hasn't found yet is very unlikely to be online, and the necessary research is likely to be at the level of historian specialists in the area whose life's work is focused on this. Until we find that one of them has published their findings online, the answer is unlikely to be here.

Hi Mike, et. al.,
I wanted to get back to you and everyone on this issue as I said I would be following some further research.

First, I would Ike to acknowledge and thank user Debra Denman who responded to a request for assistance and provided a great deal of valuable sourcing that aided in this reply and attachments. It must be pointed out that primary sources are scarce on this issue, most of the conclusions reached are based on concerted historical interpretation and should be seen as important but only likely evidence subject to the disclosure of future conclusive proof.

We acknowledge the previous discussion on the subject in which Sharon discussed the same issue many moons ago here:
https://www.geni.com/discussions/228089?msg=1460466, our conclusions are roughly the same.

With respect to the question as to why the profiles are being updated after having been on Geni since 2008, the answer is that it appears, to me at least, that between the years 2007 and 2010 there was quite a bit of GEDCOM uploading initially populating the Geni tree. This uploading created place holder profiles with not much more than names, significantly lacking in data, research, discussion and collaboration, and sourcing. Profiles when encountered must be updated with available information to meet current genealogy and Geni standards.

With respect to the opinions that if it does not exist in Cawley then it does not exist, I would disagree. fmgMedlands is a fundamental secondary source and a go to for the medieval team, but it is a work in progress as is Geni. It is not just likely to be incomplete, it is to be expected to be incomplete. Cawley updates his site at least annually. The knock against Cawley and his team is not that they are inaccurate, they are not, but that their scope of work is so broad as to be perpetually incomplete.

With respect to the existence and name of a female sibling of Eberhard that Wikipedia names “Ternois de Fruili”, we can state that we believe that such a person existed, but also that there is no name for this person that can be documented, so we recommend calling her Miss (NN) de Fruili which is consistent with other well know genealogy sites. The arguments presented in earlier posts to this thread and the aforementioned thread authored by Sharon suffice as legitimate discussion for this lack of evidence.

However, regarding this person, presumably female, having married Gebhard, count of the Lahngau, what we find is evidence in a Cawley interpretation to support the argument that Gebhard did “likely” marry an unnamed sister of Eberhard from which union was born a son Alderic who is known to history. “The exact relationship of Adalric to Graf Eberhard is not known, but assuming that nepos in the latter’s testament should be translated as nephew, one of Adalric’s parents was Eberhard’s sibling. m ---.] One child:
i) ADALRIC [Udalrich] (-after 866). The Historia Ecclesiæ Cisoniensis records the testament of “Evrardus comes cum coniuge mea Gisla”, dated “Hludovico Augusto anno regni eius XXIV” and witnessed by “Adalroch nepos noster”[624]. This may be the same person as “Odelrici Comitis” who signed the charter dated “Kal Jul anno XXXV regnante Carolo Rege” under which “Gisla” donated property to Cysoing abbey for her burial next to “coniugis mei dulcis memoriæ Evrardi”, recorded in the Historia Ecclesiæ Cisoniensis[625]. “ (1)

This wife is nowhere named. “Circumstances involving kinship to Charlemagne, political alliances, location in Italy, timeframe, and dynastic family names, all point to a likely marriage between Gerold III (witness to Charlemagne's will; sometimes written, "Gebardus" or "Gebhard") and the unnamed sister (erroneously referred to as "Ternois", apparently her brother was designated "Count of Ternois"), of Eberhard resulting in the birth of Adalric who witnessed his aunt Gisele and uncle St. Eberhard's will.” Debra is continuing research on this.

I have uploaded to Eberhard’s profile as sources the following, four of which are machine translations of documents or partial documents which help establish an historical context:
1. Document #1a, an introduction putting these people in historical context, a bibliography of our research, along with an appendix discussing the coats of arms of Fruili and the Abbey of Cysoing.
2. Document #1b, a supplementary bibliography of all the resources that we have so far found and reviewed.
3. Document #2, Several Biographic summaries ofEberhard Margrave of Friuli (828-866)
4. Document #3, Grierson Philip. La maison d'Evrard de Frioul et les origines du comté de Flandre. In: Revue du Nord, tome 24, n°96, novembre 1938. pp. 241-266, DOI : https://doi.org/10.3406/rnord.1938.1796 (translated to English by dvb)
5. Document #4, Favre, Edouard. The Family of Evrard, Marquis of Frioul in the West Frankish Kingdom. Verlag Nicht Ermittelbar, 1896. Print. (Translated to English by dvb)
6. Document #5, Lyon-Claesen, E., ed. Annales De La Societé Royale D'archéologie De Bruxelles. Vol. 13. Bruxelles: Librairie Speciale D'Architecture, Archeologie, Ameublement, Decoration, Beaux-Arts, 1898. Print. Pg 45-51. (Translated to English by dvb)
7. Document #6, Jacques, Michel-Amand. "Les Refuges Tournaisiens De L'abbaye Saint-Calixte De Cysoing." Pasquier Grenier ASBL. Dec. 2007. Web. 15 Apr. 2021. (Part, translated to English by dvb)

I note that the 8 sources already identified as sources in the profile tab show a preponderance of “evidence” in that they are representative genealogical trees from different sources, all unverified however.

We are left then with the following issues of particular interest:
1. How many children did Eberhard and Gisela have, depending on sources this number ranges from 4-13! And an additional (single) source shows Eberhard with a second wife/mistress who fathered one additional child, not even inferred anywhere else! But we have the will of Eberhard and Gisela that identifies only seven children receiving inheritance, however, the article on Eberhard by the Treccani Institute names nine children, eight of whom inherited. (2)
2. There was Gerold II and Erich of Friuli who both fought and died in the same year (799) against the Avars. And then later their progeny, Gerold III (Gerold II's nephew; likely father of Adalric, St. Eberhards's nephew) -- and "Baldric" of Friuli were sent again to fight the Bulgars in 826. Baldric of Friuli was “likely” Gerold's brother-in-law, Adalric's uncle and brother of St. Eberhard. Was this Baldric the same as Baldéric de Betüwe, comte de Betüwe ca 810-846 brother of Saint-Evrard de Frioul in some sources who was also marquis de Fruili 819-828 and who in 828 was “removed from office” as marquis by Eberhard for his “failure to have mounted an effective defense against the Bulgars during their invasion of 827”? (marquis at 9, fired at 18?).
3. Can the progeny of Gerold II and Erich of Fruili, who were possibly brothers, Erich of Fruili being a toponymic name, inform our opinion as to the unnamed sister of Eberhard? We have found no connections so far.
4. Has it been considered whether Ternois, SW of Lille, and Tournai, E of Lille, could be being conflated? If Gisela had as reported an 8,000 hecta-acre dowry, and it appears that the abbey of Cisoing as a “fisc/taxman” had lordship of 154 fiefs, they would have been spread across a large geographical area, and history is not always that precise.

I will be revisiting the profiles surrounding Eberhard de Fruili and updating them with the findings of our current research, after which I will be locking them so that only curators can make changes. A user (who may read this) who has specific concerns with any of the data presented is encouraged to start a discussion laying out arguments and providing necessary documentation so that curators can accurately assess the validity of said evidence and who will respond accordingly.

(1) http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc371156058
(2) Document #7 Fees, Irmgard. "EBERARDO, Marchese Del Friuli." Treccani, Dizionario Biografico Degli Italiani - Volume 42 (1993). Web. 19 Apr. 2021.

Hi David

Thanks for all your work here - it looks like it's taken time and care.

On your point that someone said 'what isn't in Cawley doesn't exist', if it's me you're referencing then you seem to have missed my point - which was explicitly that Cawley is convenient because he actually provides his primary sources and he's online.
(Of course Cawley is a secondary source - and the reference to him is simply a shorthand to the primary sources he cites.)

If Cawley isn't listing the primary source then it becomes much less likely that your average geni user is going to find those primary sources easily ONLINE.

Your average historian specialist with access to the historical debates in the area is a different matter though - (which is why we miss Justin so much, and value Anne Brannen so much)- and quite likely to be able to access more primary sources on what Cawley is missing, if they exist. The result is often exciting research projects such as this one https://www.geni.com/projects/Malcolm-MacEth-vs-Malcolm-MacAlexande... - where we roped in Alasdair Ross - the specialist in that area to further our knowledge.

You seem to be saying that you've done some of the second - vey exciting - and inviting us to join. This is fantastic. Can you tag the profiles you're referencing because this Discussion should be logged on their profiles too?

So, on Adalric (Udalrich) you say:
"
what we find is evidence in a Cawley interpretation to support the argument that Gebhard did “likely” marry an unnamed sister of Eberhard from which union was born a son Alderic who is known to history. “The exact relationship of Adalric to Graf Eberhard is not known, but assuming that nepos in the latter’s testament should be translated as nephew, one of Adalric’s parents was Eberhard’s sibling. m ---.] One child:i) ADALRIC [Udalrich] (-after 866). The Historia Ecclesiæ Cisoniensis records the testament of “Evrardus comes cum coniuge mea Gisla”, dated “Hludovico Augusto anno regni eius XXIV” and witnessed by “Adalroch nepos noster”[624]. This may be the same person as “Odelrici Comitis” who signed the charter dated “Kal Jul anno XXXV regnante Carolo Rege” under which “Gisla” donated property to Cysoing abbey for her burial next to “coniugis mei dulcis memoriæ Evrardi”, recorded in the Historia Ecclesiæ Cisoniensis[625]. “ (1)
This wife is nowhere named. “Circumstances involving kinship to Charlemagne, political alliances, location in Italy, timeframe, and dynastic family names, all point to a likely marriage between Gerold III (witness to Charlemagne's will; sometimes written, "Gebardus" or "Gebhard") and the unnamed sister (erroneously referred to as "Ternois", apparently her brother was designated "Count of Ternois"), of Eberhard resulting in the birth of Adalric who witnessed his aunt Gisele and uncle St. Eberhard's will.” Debra is continuing research on this."

I'm not sure that Cawley can support this.
Firstly, how are you coming to the assumption that Adalric being Eberhard's nepos automatically makes him the child of a NN sister of Eberhard?

There are two many leaps to be taken here to make this historically defensible, in my opinion- unless I'm missing something. (And I may well be reading fast while I have a chance - and missing something)

1. Nepos is used to mean a number of relationships, including grandson - and sometimes what we'd simply call cousin. Uncle is definitely not certain.

2. And even if we choose to assume it means uncle here - then the fact is that Eberhard has a number of siblings: two brothers and another definite sister. Why is Adalric's parentage not better attributed to them?

On Gebhard d'Orléans, count of the Lahngau having a child called Adalric by a sister of Eberhard

1.we have no sources for this child of his - although we have docs for plenty other of his children

2. Have you found sources that suggest he even had a second marriage? So far, all I can see is that he was likely to have been either the brother or brother-in-law of Ernst I, count in Nordgau -(hence .... im Nordgau) but perhaps I'm not looking far enough?

On the children of St Eberhard, margrave & duke of Friuli and Giséle of Cysoing - that would be interesting to research further. Probably best suited to it's own Discussion from their profiles.

On "3. Can the progeny of Gerold II and Erich of Fruili, who were possibly brothers, Erich of Fruili being a toponymic name, inform our opinion as to the unnamed sister of Eberhard? We have found no connections so far."

I'm not following why they should.

On "4. Has it been considered whether Ternois, SW of Lille, and Tournai, E of Lille, could be being conflated? If Gisela had as reported an 8,000 hecta-acre dowry, and it appears that the abbey of Cisoing as a “fisc/taxman” had lordship of 154 fiefs, they would have been spread across a large geographical area, and history is not always that precise."

It sounds very feasible and jolly interesting. What light would that shed on the above relationships?

Ternois and Tournai are coming from the same Dutch word (perhaps originating from an older Celtic language) Dornick, which means meander in a river. We have one near St-Pol (Old southern Flanders) on the river with the same name, one on the river Scheldt (Tournai-Doornik, the old city of the Merovingian king Childeric) and one on the German-Dutch border on the river Rhine. But making a female first name of it sounds very weird.

Carl Gustav Verbraeken
I remember seeing an observation in the reading somewhere that Cysoing meant “under the creek”, I assumed maybe meant “south of the creek” as a map reference. I looked at Google Earth but could not find a creek in the area north of the location of the original site of the abbey.

Nepos is indeed a word that is difficult to manage, it has caused maybe more confusion in historical documents than any other.

The conclusion was based on Cawley words without trying to interpret them

“but assuming that nepos in the latter’s testament should be translated as nephew, one of Adalric’s parents was Eberhard’s sibling.”

Cawley then shows this relationship
e) [--- . The exact relationship of Adalric to Graf Eberhard is not known, but assuming that nepos in the latter’s testament should be translated by nephew, one of Adalric’s parents was Eberhard’s sibling. m ---.] One child:
i) ADALRIC [Udalrich] (-after 866). The Historia Ecclesiæ Cisoniensis records the testament of “Evrardus comes cum coniuge mea Gisla”, dated “Hludovico Augusto anno regni eius XXIV” and witnessed by “Adalroch nepos noster”[624]. This may be the same person as “Odelrici Comitis” who signed the charter dated “Kal Jul anno XXXV regnante Carolo Rege” under which “Gisla” donated property to Cysoing abbey for her burial next to “coniugis mei dulcis memoriæ Evrardi”, recorded in the Historia Ecclesiæ Cisoniensis[625].

It adds difficulty in understanding the construct when the questions posed were separated from the context in which they were generated. It would have been a more fair representation of the questions had the entire discussion been linked, the historical context of Fruili and the persons involved here would have been better understood in the larger picture. One is going to have to review the entirety of the supplemental bibliography that was presented to fully understand the extent of the evidence that supports this connection.

There was a question from someone in the original discussion as to whether this NN could have been the wife of Graf Eberhard. As we said the part of the discussion removed we believe this to be the case based on such references in the multitude of sourcing reviewed while also acknowledging that our conclusion was based on what we believe to be rather a preponderance of evidence but did not call it genealogical proof.