Berenger, count of Bayeux - genealogical loop

They are different - look at the dates.

unsourced!
check ML int he info of Beranger, Count of Bayeux --> father of Poppa without [parenthesis] of approximation

exactly the same of Berengar ll, of Neustria (total locked;)

Not so fast! Poppa’s parents are disputed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poppa_of_Bayeux

Dudo of Saint-Quentin, in his panegyric of the Norman dukes, describes her as the daughter of a "Count Berengar", the dominant prince of that region, who was captured at Bayeux by Rollo in 885 or 889, shortly after the siege of Paris.[7] This has led to speculation that she was the daughter of Berengar II of Neustria.[8][9]

There are different opinions among medieval genealogy experts about Poppa's family. Christian Settipani says her parents were Guy de Senlis and Cunegundis, the daughter of Pepin, Count of Vermandois, and sister of Herbert I, Count of Vermandois.[10] Katherine Keats-Rohan states she was the daughter of Berengar II of Neustria by Adelind, whose father was Henry, Margrave of the Franks, or Adela of Vermandois.[11] Despite the uncertainty of her parentage, she undoubtedly was a member of the Frankish aristocracy.[12] A statue of Poppa stands at the Place de Gaulle in Bayeux.[13]

https://web.archive.org/web/20180929043557/http://home.earthlink.ne...

Poppa was said by Dudo [ii, 16 (pp. 38-9); iii, 36 (p. 57)] to be of Frankish origin, daughter of a certain count Bérenger. The Planctus, which does not provide her name, states that she was a Christian, and mother by a pagan father (i.e., Rollo, whose name is also not given) of William, who was born overseas. The accounts given by Dudo and the Planctus are not necessarily contradictory (since Dudo places Rollo overseas in England not long after mentioning the marriage), but there is also nothing in the Planctus that could be seen as confirming Dudo's account. Some authors have gone even further than Dudo's vague account, by attempting to identify the father of Poppa more specifically, and even to provide her with a mother. Two recent such suggestions are mentioned here, with some comments.

Settipani:
Proposed father: Gui, count of Senlis.
Proposed mother: NN (Cunegundis?), daughter of count Pepin, and sister of Heribert I, count of Vermandois.
See Settipani (1993), 217-221. An eleventh century Norman Chronicle (Annales Rouennaises) is cited as making Poppa "... filiam Wydonis comitis Sylvanectensis, sororem Bernardi..." [see Settipani (1993), 218, Keats-Rohan (1997), 198]. This Gui is apparently not known from any other source. The proposed mother comes from the statement of Flodoard that Bernard of Senlis was a consobrinus of Heribert II of Vermandois (see below).

Keats-Rohan:
Proposed father: Bérenger, d. 896 (?), "marquis of Neustria".
Proposed mother ("Hypothesis I"): NN (Adalind?), daughter of Henry of Thuringia.
Proposed mother ("Hypothesis II"): NN (Adela?) of Vermandois.
See Keats-Rohan (1997), 196-7. While accepting Dudo's statment that the father of Poppa was a count Bérenger, and then attempting to identify him with a specific Bérenger, the alleged connection to Bernard of Senlis is also accepted, by making Bernard either a second cousin ("Hypothesis I") or uterine brother ("Hypothesis II") of Poppa.

Neither of these hypotheses is supported by good contemporary evidence, and both have problems that go beyond the lack of good supporting evidence. ....

here is the origin of the dates :D
*https://www.geni.com/merge/view?revision_id=70504650140
(which then of course no one has been able to modify anymore;)

So the reason there are 2 different counts is that the Berenger who may have been Poppa’s father was not the Berenger who married N.N. de Senlis, daughter of Pépin

MedLands has:

Comte Pépin & his wife had five children:

[daughter .

[m firstly BERENGER Comte [de Bayeux], son of --- (-13 Dec [892 or after]). The necrology of Le Mans Cathedral records the death "Id Dec" of "Beringerius comes"[577]. As explained below, one way of reconciling the apparently contradictory sources which recount the origin of Poppa, wife of Rollo of Normandy, is that her mother married firstly Berengar Comte de Bayeux and secondly Guy Comte de Senlis. There is no proof that this is correct.]

https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/poppa000.htm

(Same thing)

I would only combine Berengers if we disconnect Poppa, which we should do anyway. The evidence is hypothetical only.

-https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#PoppaMRollo

NOT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berengar_II_of_Neustria ''(draft)''

..not yet at least, some suppose it: in fact there is a nice scheme of the hypothesized drafts in wiki FR * https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A9renger_II_de_Neustrie ''(draft)''

Too hypothetical. :)

Let’s see what others say. But I don’t believe, so far, we can give Poppa parents on Geni.

http://www.cynthiaswope.com/withinthevines/Normans/WmConqAhn/AT01/A...

While the identification of Poppa of Bayeux may be uncertain, many reputable genealogists continue to name her."82

James Allen Stevens in his webpages citing post in SGM:
"David Geen, Editor of "The American Genealogist postd to GEN-MEDIEVAL on 12/09/99 that

. "Katherine Keats-Rohan, in her article article on "Poppa of Bayeux and
Her Family" in the 75th-anniversary issue of TAG (July-October 1997). . .
accepts, as I think do most scholars, the early identification of Poppa's
father as Berengar, marquis of Neustria. She then works with the
hypothesis that Poppa's name indicates descent from the Popponen, a
dynastic family that tended to bestow the name "Poppo" on the second
(or at least not the eldest) son. She proposes that Poppa was a
granddaughter of Heinrich of Thuringia and his wife Ingeltrude, daughter
of Louis the Pious [RIN 1212], which would give this family a Carolingian
descent; Heinrich was a brother of Poppo II. She suggests two hypotheses
for the connection between Heinrich and Poppa: Either Berengar of
Neustria or his wife Adalind was a child of Heinrich.
. Later commentary on the Popponen, with pedigree charts, appears in
Donald C. Jackman's _Criticism and Critique: Sidelights on the
Konradiner_ (Oxford, 1997), the first (and currently the only) volume in a
major series entitled _Prosopographica et Genealogica_, edited by K. S.
B. Keats-Rohan and Christian Settipani." "14

From: Gordon Fisher SGM:

"Most ancestries for Poppa, wife of Rollo, list Beranger, Count of Bayeaux as her father, and do not identify her mother or any further ancestry for Beranger. This includes Moriarty, Plantagenet Ancestry, p. 11; Weis, Ancestral Roots [121E-18]; Winkhaus, "Normandie," p. 133; Europaische Stammtafeln, ii, 79; Turton, Plantagenet Ancestry, p. 6; Stuart, Royalty for Commoners [166-35]; Joannis & Saint-Jouan, i, 4.

TLDR

Poppa's very existence is disputed.

Dudo is not viewed as a reliable source, his history was written several generations after the event and was politically motivated.

http://vlib.iue.it/carrie/documents/planctus/planctus/index.html

Introduction: Problems with medieval sources

When reading a collection of medieval sources, it is easy to be seduced by the crisp, clear translations and the confident presentation, and to forget what every historian who has dealt first-hand with medieval documents knows. Often, modern editions and translations are based not upon original documents, but on later copies which may have been deliberately altered or inadvertently corrupted. When the text is dubious or, sometimes, incomprehensible, modern versions try to make sense of it, and thus gloss over the difficulties. Sometimes, multiple copies exist, which differ in detail or even in broad strokes; these differences are usually smoothed over in modern translations or editions, where the variants are relegated to footnotes. ....

yes yes, and however far from home I am, I agree with everything and everyone,
@Alex thinks that sometimes I too context my existence by myself! ^^'

in any case to be sure that no one answers from the mobile phone, while at the traffic light, sipping a coffee .. I copy paste with the sentences, what primary source ML reports updated:
------------------------------------

21. BERENGER (-[886 or after]). Comte de Bayeux. According to Orderic Vitalis, Rollo "stormed and captured Bayeux, slew its count Berengar and took to wife his daughter Poppa"[934]. In another passage, the same source records that Rollo besieged Paris, captured Bayeux, killed "Berengarium comitem" and married his daughter Popa, in 886[935], although this date appears early in light of the likely birth date range of the couple's son Guillaume.

m [as her first husband] --- [du Vexin], daughter of PEPIN [Carolingian] & his wife ---. One way of reconciling the apparently contradictory sources which recount the origin of Poppa, wife of Rollo of Normandy, is that her mother married firstly Berengar Comte de Bayeux and secondly Guy Comte de Senlis. There is no proof that this is correct. [She married secondly Wido [Guy] Comte de Senlis.]

Berengar & his wife had one child:

-https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#PoppaMRollo
a) POPPA .

Guillaume de Jumièges records that Rollo captured “Baiocasensem urbem” [Bayeux] along with "nobilissimam puellam...Popam filiam...Berengarii illustris viri" whom he married “more Danico” and by whom he had “Willelmum...filiamque...Gerloc”[936].

Orderic Vitalis records that "xxx annis post cladem Hastingi [dated to 851 in other sources, see the document CENTRAL FRANCE NOBILITY], Rollo dux cum valida Danorum juventute" entered “Neustriam”, captured Bayeux (“Baiocas”), killed “Berengarium comitem” and married “Popam...filiam eius”[937].

The Chronico Rotomagensis records that "mortua a Gisla, accepit Rollo propriam uxorem filiam comitis Silvanectensis Widonis"[938].

Robert of Torigny combines the information, recording that "Rollo dux Northmannorum" married "Popam prius repudiatam uxorem…filiam…Berengarii comitis Baiocensis neptem vero Widonis comitis Silvanectensis"[939].

Another indication of Poppa’s family origin is provided by Guillaume of Jumièges who records that Louis IV King of the West Franks, after the death of the father [Poppa’s son Guillaume I “Longuespée”] of Richard I Comte [de Normandie], marched on Rouen, was received by “Rodulphus et Bernardus atque Anslech totius Normannici ducatus tutores”, and captured Richard, who was taken to Laon but was freed by “Osmundus...consilio cum Yvone patre Willelmi de Belismo” and taken to “Silvanectis” where “Bernardus...comes” [presumably identifiable as Bernard [II] Comte de Senlis, who, assuming that the reconstruction proposed in the document CAROLINGIAN NOBILITY is correct, was Poppa’s uterine half-brother] protected “nepotem suum Richardum”[940].

Guillaume of Jumièges records that Rollo married "repudiatam Poppa" again after the death of his wife [Gisela][941].

m (886 or after, repudiated, remarried after 912) as his second wife, ROLLO, later known as ROBERT I Comte [de Normandie], son of [RAGNVALD "the Wise" Jarl of Möre in Norway & his wife Ragnhild] ([846]-[928]).

----------------------------------
PS. from almost a thousand ADMN involved I thought more interventions :D
------------------------------------

671 managers of Poppa, I'm only following it, not one single of them is a collaborate partner to me, glad over that too. Also happy that curators holding the view that she did not exist at all is allowed to steer with their scissors all alone, or they might do it anyway.

Cawley’s construction of the family is not the same as Keats-Rohan or of Settipani, who are considered the top medievalists today, Cawley is not (although of course his work is wonderful). And they are not in agreement, which is fine - but hard to reconcile on Geni.

I am so far of the opinion that the way the curator set it up with the 2 counts is a little confusing but as close as we can get. So please go forward with clarifying explanations (such as the obvious - that we don’t know her mother nor which comte).

Livio Scremin I gave up drinking coffee last year and i manage to resist Geni at traffic lights, but quite often I am indeed commenting from a mobile phone :)

I agree with Erica's comments in this thread, the profiles are terrible but the solution is to make them better not to merge them. Cawley is a very good medievalist who presents the work of experts very well, I don't think he claims to be an expert himself(?).

Well, think I thought, you all thought you were the experts! ;D
Just think, I've been fighting hand-to-hand with bare fingers for 2 years to unlock Italian knots, that since ML didn't list someone, someone didn't have to exist!

Well, however if Poppa now exists in my opinion there are 2 ways to continue to write graphically on Geni, what historians report:
---------
#mode 1
-Beranger, Count of Bayeux = Berenger, comte de Bayeux
-Berengar ll, of Neustria = comte Berenger

##mode 2
but then are we sure that N.N. de Senlis, daughter of Pépin married a Berenger ? no!? merge 2 MP & cut marriage

----------
##mode 3 (ML way: merge 2MP and leave notes of uncertainty, yes yes I know, I understand you all don't like it :)

#### in any case, the info-about must be unlocked, and the profiles that lead from one tree to another must be tagged!

##### away those JPG Random /!\
*maybe we don't even know if he's married or not, & if we're not even sure who the guy is, what's he doing with the COA !?
** I knew something was wrong around as soon as I saw the tricolor flag LOL
*** don't really worry, I'm just revving it to emphasize it. make your choice! :D

Maybe it’s the attack of one of your “clone” profiles.

I’ve added note detail to differentiate Berengar ll, of Neustria from Beranger, Count of Bayeux and tagged both to Poppa of Bayeux

Take a look. Hopefully it reflects the “possible but unproven” status of study.

I’m not liking the wives.

Beranger, Count of Bayeux Should match Medlands, Berengar ll, of Neustria should match https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berengar_II_of_Neustria

Do we need to move N.N. de Senlis, daughter of Pépin

I observe with interest the work in progress, just pay attention to the old ML texts pasted in the info, I think they have updated them:
without studying everything based on just looking at the dates, I see that there is a mix with this:

-https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#BerengerMa...
22. BERENGER (-13 Dec [892 or after]). [Comte du Maine]. A notice of Saint-Martin de Tours records that officials of the church went to Le Mans 13 Jun 892 demanding justice from "Beringerium comitem"[942]. The necrology of Le Mans Cathedral records the death "Id Dec" of "Beringerius comes"[943].

(observing with interest I do not intrude:)

Merged yet another Bérenger.

Notice there’s a third here.

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000173702952201

The Medlands on this Bérenger of Neustria (according to Wikipedia) of Rennes (according to Medlands)

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/brittnpr.htm#BerangerMDaughterGurva...

A. COMTES de RENNES


BERENGER, son of --- . Comte. 889/before 931. Guillaume of Jumièges records that Charles III "le Simple" King of the West Franks granted "terram maritimam ab Eptæ flumine usque ad Britannicos limites" together with "sua filia...Gisla" to Rollo who renounced his campaigns, that the king added "tota Britannia" and that “ipsius provinciæ principibus Berengerio atque Alanno” swore allegiance to Rollo[523].
m [--- de Bretagne, daughter of GURWENT [Gurvand] Duke of Brittany & his wife ---]. The primary source which confirms her parentage and marriage has not yet been identified. Borderie suggests that Judicael Comte de Rennes was the grandson of Duke Gurwent, but he does not cite any primary source which supports his reasoning[524].
Comte Bérenger & his wife had one son:
1. JUDICAËL [Juhael] (-[970]). Comte de Rennes.

French Wikipedia does not agree with Medlands.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bérenger_II_de_Neustrie

Children [unconfirmed]

From his unknown wife (some propose the first names of Cunégonde or Adèle for onomastic reasons), he had:

* certainly Poppa de Bayeux , kidnapped then married more danico to Rollo .
* probably a girl married to a count of Rennes, and mother of Juhel Bérenger , count of Rennes
* probably Wendigarde, married to Udalrich, count of Linzgau and Thurgau, mother of Bérenger, count of Thurgau, and of Burkhard, abbot of Saint-Gall.

now you have the bitter responsibility to explain that we are not following the ML updated, that according to the new shifts it indicates:

Beranger, Count of Bayeux
-sure father of Poppa of Bayeux
*just maybe husband of N.N. de Senlis, daughter of Pépin

Go very slow. There are many people yet to reach for opinions and many contradictory and conflated people to try and identify better.

What do you think of the multiple Berengeurs shown here?

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000173702952201

Why does Poppa keep getting a parent when there’s dispute?

Beranger, Count of Bayeux

"Popam filiam...Berengarii illustris viri," = Poppa daughter of the famous ... Berengary...

maybe because it says so.

We don’t know which Berengar and the closest to original source is unreliable. There is not consensus among scholars. So how do we represent? With links within profiles so people can decide for themselves.

Has so we have done.

Unless there’s new evidence presentable, consider this resolved on Geni for now.