Dina Katz Heschel (Wahl Katzenellenbogen), "haGedolah" - Dates issues

It looks like some of the children are duplicated. But, Rbzn. Dina Katz Heschel doesn't have an exact birth date or death date listed. So, any ages are just estimates, right?

Another thing about her:
I could not find solid information who was the real mother of
Rabbi Issachar Berish Babad

Was she as it now appears in geni:
Hesya Miriam Heschel
or:
Rbzn. Dina Katz Heschel
I asked the question in the ozar ahochma forum and they replied that the researchers of rabbinical families tried to find information about his mother, but were unsuccessful
Does anyone here have solid information about who his real mother was?

For R' Issahar's mother, look at the post underneath initiated by Randy Schonberg on 05/01/2020

Richard Gradstein Stepniewski,

Thank you, unfortunately I did"nt find

Richard Gradstein Stepniewski

I saw now, that on my grandfather's side your great-grandfather is the brother of my great aunt, and on my grandmother's side we are cousins (5), I did not know
nice to meet you

The post is in one of the discussions on Dina's profile. The post is from Raandy on 05/05/2020.
Yes we are cousins.

Randy Schoenberg,

I would have to say that the current state of Dina's profile seems to be a royal mess, which we will need to put our heads together to resolve!

First off, according to Volume 1, page 29 of "The Unbroken Chain", G6.2 Dinah, who was married 1st around 1645 to Naftali Katz, and later to R' Abraham Joshua Heschel, was born about 1620/25, and not in 1590.

The 2nd marriage, to R' Abraham Joshua Heschel wouldn't have been until after the death of her 1st husband, in 1649.

In "The Unbroken Chain", it says that Dinah had issue with both husbands, but I am not seeing right now where the names of any of the children are listed for either of these marriages.
But, as you have observed, it is readily apparent that the dates of birth for these children, many of which are prior to her marriage to either of the 2 husbands, make no sense at all. I can only suggest that whoever added all these children needs to tell us what their source was.

Also, I'm having some confusion about whether or not Dinah is attached to the correct parents. If you look at Volume 3, page 694, in the section on R. Abraham Joshua Heschel of Cracow's family background, it says that R. Naftali Katz was married to Dinah, and there is a footnote that says Dinah's parents were Judah Wahl's and the daughter of R. Moses Reb Lasers of Brest Litovsk. Additionally, there is also a footnote about Dinah stating that "She was not a member of the Katzenellenbogen family as many scholars have mistakenly claimed, thus causing much confusion in these early genealogies of the family". But then, if we go back to Volume 4, page 29, it would appear that G6.2 Dinah, was the daughter of G5.1 Judah Wahl's, who was a son of G4.10 Pessia (who was married to R. Meir Wahl's (Walsch), daughter of G3.3 R' Saul Katzenellenbogen. But, if this was the case, then Dinah would still clearly be a member of the Katzenellenbogen family. To complicate things further, there is a footnote associated with the entry for G5.1 Judah Wahl's which says "Sources that claim that Saul Wahl had a son Judah Wahl (such as Edelmann in Gedulat Shaul) are incorrect".

Thoughts?

Claudia

Okay, I think I figured out a couple of things:

The footnote from Volume 3 page 649 must have mean't that Dinah's mother was not part of the Katzenellenbogen family. So, going back to Volume 4, page 29, Dinah's Katzenellenbogen ancestry comes from her father, G5.1 Judah Wahl's, who is a son of G4.10 Pessia, daughter of G3.3 R' Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen.

Currently, we have Dinah attached to Shmuel Yehuda Wahl, son of Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen, but as far as I can tell, G6.2 Dinah was the daughter of Judah Zalman Wahl's son of Pesia (Hesia) Walsch daughter of Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen (1 day King)

And she was a sister of G6.1 Lusia Ashkenazi-Heilprin and G6.3 Rivele Rivka Gunzburg

So, I really do think now that she is in the wrong place, i.e. connected to the wrong parents, and consequently, not properly connected to her siblings either.

I think we need to move her, so let me know what you think.

Claudia

Kevin Lawrence Hanit and Kevin Lawrence Hanit

The excerpt below, from the 'about' section of Rbzn. Dina Katz Heschel shows an ancestry that may have come from the prior edition of "The Unbroken Chain", but it does not match with what is in the 3rd edition:

"Shimon Barak: Dina Wahl Katzenelbogen was the wife of Abraham Joshua Heschel of Cracow (The Unbroken Chain p 759), daughter of R Judah Wahl Katzenelbogen, grandaughter of Saul Wahl, Greatgrandaughter of R Samuel Judah Katzenellenboden who was the Maharam's son"

According to the 3rd edition, Volume 1, page 29, Dinah was daughter of Judah Zalman Wahl's granddaughter of Pesia (Hesia) Walsch and great granddaughter of Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen (1 day King)

In my earlier post above, I had cited Volume 4, page 29, but it should have said Volume 1, page 29, so I apologize for the error. I've been working on Volume 4 for quite awhile, so I must have had the number 4 emblazened in my mind.

Also, in Volume 3, the same parentage for Dina is repeated. As explained in my earlier post, it says in Volume 3, page 694, in the footnote that Dinah was a maternal granddaughter of R Moses Reb Lazer's, because her mother, who married Judah Wahl's, was a daughter of R. Moses Reb Lazer's.

Claudia

Randy Schoenberg,

See above post. It was supposed to tag both you and Kevin. My bad.

Claudia

Heads up to managers of offspring of Dinah K: if Dinah K is given a birth year of 1620-25, then there are 5 of her offspring on the current GENI tree who were born before or same time as she was and these offspring are now in danger of being detached from both parents.

Claudia Bullock Could you please check the 3rd edition to see if there are any details on the R'Avraham Heilprin who is the spouse of Dinah's sister, i.e. G6.2's spouse? I want to make sure whether this is the same one who is detailed in Jewish Encyclopedia: https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7493-heilprin-abraham-b...

Private User,

I am fully aware of the ramifications of Dinah having a birth year of 1620/1625, and the bottom line is that I don't see what proof we have that these were her children at all. I have no idea what the source is for the 16 children that are listed on her profile.

Dinah couldn't have been born in 1590, because the marriage to her 1st husband wasn't until 1645, so that would mean that she didn't even begin having children until she was 55, which would be past child-bearing age.

Furthermore, Dinah also had children with her 2nd husband, and we know that her marriage to her 2nd husband couldn't have occurred until after the 1649 death of the first husband, so if she had been born in 1590, then she wouldn't have begun to have any children with the 2nd husband until she was at least 59 years old. Also, you will notice that a number of Dinah's children who have been attributed to the 2nd husband were purportedly born way before 1649, so it just isn't possible.

Claudia

Claudia Bullock I gather that from your post. My heads up is mainly directed to the managers of offspring who I am copying here because they may not be connected to the Dinah profile: Perl Zanvil, Bachrach Hinde Lieberman Duplicate tree to be isolated - no need to merge Isaac Katz Chaim HaKohen HaCohen Katz R' Samuel Mordecai Heschel Esther Shapira, of Hildesheim I gather Dinah would have had about 4 years to have children by the Katz spouse, so there could be I guess maybe 5 children during that span and it could be that these offspring have the Katz offspring have the wrong birth years and that several of the Heshel's do as well.

There are currently 8 Katz offpspring shown so seems to me that if the marriage dates are correct and there weren't several multiple births, then 3 or 4 of the Katz offspring are impossible, even if birth years are adjusted. Is it possible to know the source of the marriage year to R' Katz from UC?

correction to post of 8:31pm : "...that these offspring have the wrong birth years and that..."

and one more manager: Shmuel Katz

Private User,

Yes, there is some information about Dinah's sister's spouse, i.e. R. Abraham Heilprin. He was "author of Ahavat Tzion, published Lublin 1639, son of R. Moses Ashkenazi Heilprin, author of Zichron Moshe, published Lublin 1611, son of Zebulon Eliezer.

I think he would be the same one who is detailed at the link you provided, because your link says that he was the author of Ahavat Tzion, published 1639, and the father's names are the same as well.

Claudia

Claudia Bullock Thanks. I think it best to leave the question of R' Avraham Heilprin and spouse until Chapter 17 of UC is available because it implicates a large swath of the Heilprin tree.

Private User,

UC says that Dinah "was first married in about 1645 to Naftali Katz, ABD of Prusstiz, Nikolsburg (Mikulov) Moravia, Pinsk, and Lublin". It does not say what the source of that estimate was.

However, UC also clearly says that Dinah was the daughter of Judah Zalman Wahl's and NOT the daughter of Shmuel Yehuda Katzenellenbogen

And so It seems to me that the 1590 birth estimate in Geni is directly related to her being attached to the wrong father.

Claudia

Claudia Bullock Thanks very much.

With all due respect to the UC, this discussion boils down to knowing what is at the root of the difference between the UC version (as described earlier in this thread) and what is shown on a 2015 Gelles tree (which is what appears to represent the current GENI tree) (http://archives.balliol.ox.ac.uk/Modern%20Papers/gelles/GellesWahlD...). I don't see a chronological reason why the Gelles version of Dinah's parentage isn't plausible, even if her birth year is closer to 1620 than to 1590 (a year which may have been selected to accommodate the supposed birth years of the Katz offpspring). The Gelles sequence could go something like this: Shaul Wahl (K'bogen) (bca 1545) > (Shmuel) Yehuda Wahl (K'bogen) (bca 1590) > Dinah Wahl (K'bogen) (bca 1620). Does UC give us enough evidence to make a determination (don't we need something more than mere conclusory statements like 'scholars have mistakenly claimed' or "Sources that claim..are incorrect...')? Without something concrete in the UC which allows the Gelles version to be discarded, I wouldn't know how to resolve the parentage question at this moment.

My preference for a best practice in this and like situations would be to create two ungendered placeholder profiles between Dinah and Shaul Wahl (K'bogen), making her the great grand daughter of Shaul Wahl ((it could also be one ungendered placeholder, making her the grand daughter-- it doesn;t matter for this temporary purpose as long as a connection is kept for 'Are You Connected' inquiries). The placeholders allow the connection to Shaul Wahl to be maintained without specifying her parentage (in both versions she is a direct Shaul Wahl descendant). Meanwhile, the alternative parentages would be delineated in the 'About' section (including URLs to the alternative parents) so that anyone who thinks they know the answer can take that information and use it as they wish. Otherwise you have researchers relying on what could turn out to be flawed pedigrees. Needless to say, whatever 'fix' is done, the profiles should be somehow 'locked' so that we're not back here in several months dealing with the same issue. If someone figures out what is true and posts good supporting evidence in a Discussion, then the custodian could make the changes.

As for the offspring, something should be done about the birth years of the Katz children born before about 1633 (an impossibility given a birth year of 1620 for Dinah) and the Heschel children born before 1849 (which is when Dina's first husband died, unless someone wants to make a case for bigamy). Without any UC guidance on the identity and dates of the offspring, I see no feasible option other than to alert offspring profile managers and wait.

correction: that's 1649 in the last paragraph, not 1849....

Private User,

My main observation regarding the difference in birth estimates, i.e. 1590 vs. 1620, is that the two estimates are basically a generation off from each other. Depending on which father is the correct one, Dinah becomes either a granddaughter or a great-granddaughter of Saul Wahl, which is also a difference of one generation. So, it seems pretty likely to me that this is at the source of the 30-year discrepancy in birth estimates. That is really what I was trying to say in my last post, in case I wasn't clear.

Regarding the pertinent conclusory remark you mentioned, I will provide the full context, complete with sources and rationale, so that it can be better understood.

The main text for which the reference is supplied comes from Chapter 1, page 29, and is as follows:

"G5.1 Judah Wahl's, married the daughter of Moses Reb Lazer's of Brest-Litovsk (that is son of Eliezer Isserles who was a cantor in Cracow and died there in 1623, brother of the ReMa)."

Footnote #56 is associated with this passage, and reads as follows:

"See AAL (end) and IV, 33. DK states that it was Judah son of Pesia (G14.12) who married the daughter of Moses Reb Lazer's. See also Ir Tehila, 31. Sources that claim that Saul Wahl had a son Judah Wahl (such as Edelmann in Gedulat Shaul) are incorrect. See the discussion in Neil Rosenstein, Saul Wahl, 2006, 265 and Avotaynu XXII (2006), 2, 26-28. The relationships presented here explain how R. Saul of Cracow, son of R. Heschel of Cracow was able to call R. Saul Gunzberg of Pinsk his first cousin (sheini b'sheini) as is discussed in Chapter IX - under R. Abraham Joshua Heschel of Cracow. Special thanks to DovBerish Weber for his clarification of confused ancient sources."

When I go to Chapter 9, I find the part where it says that dinah was a maternal granddaughter of R. Moses Reb Lazer's, because her mother, who married Judah Wahl's, was a daughter of R. Moses Reb Lazer's. It goes on to say:

"Another daughter of R. Moses Reb Lazer's married R. Naftali Herz Gunzberg was the father of R. Saul Gunzberg, ABD Pinsk. R. Saul, ABD Cracow, son of Reb Heschel wrote and approbation (in 1705) to his uncle, R. Naftali Herz Ginzburg's Naftali Sh'va Ratzon where he calls, Saul Gunzberg, sheni besheini - that is - his first cousin. The two Saul's were not named for the same ancestor. See the image below of the approbation by R. Saul, ABD Cracow, son of R. Heschel to Naftali Sh'va Ratzon, published in Hamburg in 1708".

Okay, I hope this will be helpful in some way.

Claudia

FWIW, I'm noting now that there seems to be some sort of an internal inconsistency in UC regarding some of the relationships surrounding Dinah. The main text in Chapter 1, pages 29-30 presents Dinah and the Wife of Naftali Herz Gunzberg as sisters, both being maternal grand-daughters of R. Moses Reb Lazer's. But it also says in Chapter 9, as stated in my last post, that the Wife of Naftali Herz Gunzberg was a daughter of R. Moses Reb Lazer's rather than a grand-daughter. If they were not sisters, and one was a daughter and the other a grand-daughter of R. Moses Reb Lazer's, then I think the 2 Saul's would be 1C1R rather than 1st cousins. To complicate things further, in the main text in Chapter 9, page 694 says that Naftali Katz was married to Dinah, daughter of R. Moses Reb Lazer's of Brest Litovsk. I had assumed it was a typo and should have said grand-daughter, because there is a footnote at the bottom of the page where it is clearly stated that she was a maternal grand-daughter of R. Moses Reb Lazers, plus in Chapter 1, page 29-30, both are shown in the main text as sisters, who were maternal grand-daughters of R. Moses Reb Lazer's.

In any case, strictly speaking, for the two Saul's to be 1st cousins, it seems to me that their mother's would have to be sisters.

Claudia

Claudia Bullock What you a transcribed is helping. I would have to go dig deeper into Rosenstein, Saul Wahl, 2006, 265 or Avotaynu XXII (2006), 2, 26-28 to understand what the Judah thing is about. Unfortunately neither of these texts is in my library nor easily accessible online so it may take a while, if ever. Rosenstein is arguing strongly in favor of the a non-K'bogen Judah being the father and I just wanted to know why that was.

On the brighter side, I find that there is good consistency on the Isserles side between UC and this tree: https://www.davidicdynasty.org/isserles/. The key to understanding Dinah, Hesia, and R' Heshel is that Hesia is the daughter of R' Moshe Leizers, and Dinah is the granddaughter. Hesia is the mother of R' Saul of Cracow. Another daugther of R' Moshe Leizers is RIvkeh, who is the spouse of Naphtali Gunzburg and the mother of R' Saul of Pinsk. So the two Sauls are first cousins. Another daughter of R' Moshe Leizers is the mother of Dinah (I agree that the Chapter 9, page 694 has to be wrong about her being a daughter to R' Moshe Leizer). So Dinah is Hesia's niece and they were both married to R' Heshel (what a guy).

The gist of this is I'm agreeing with your initial suggestion to correct Dinah's paternity, without further evidence because I don't know when I'll be able to get to those texts: Yehuda Zalman of unknown paternity married Pesia K'bogen bat Shaul Wahl and their daughter is Dinah.. Consistent with the various source you quoted, the relationships between Rivke, Hesia, and Dinah's mother of unknown name, who I believe are all siblings, needs to be adjusted as described above. I don't see that Dinah has any known siblings at the moment.

There is definitely something askew with Dinah's offspring: she currently has 16 children ranging in birth year from 1607-63, with two husbands, whilst the other spouse of R' Katz is given one child (Esther bat Isaiah Katz) and the other spouse of R' Heshel is given four (i.e. the tally is 16 to 5). One thing to keep in mind for those paying attention to this side of things is that just because Dinah's first spouse died circa 1649, doesn't necessarily mean she immediately married R' Heshel. He could have kept reproducing with his first spouse, Dinah's aunt, for who knows how long, before Dinah became his 2nd spouse. In fact we can't be sure that Dinah and R' Heshel had any children: perhaps she stepped in as spouse to help with her nieces and nephews after their mother was gone.

Private User,

The tree that you linked to is consistent with UC, Chapter 1, page 29, in the sense that both say that Dinah's mother was a daughter of Moses Reb Lazers. They are also consistent in that neither source provides a given name for her mother.

According to UC, Chapter 1, page 29, Pesia (Hesia), was actually the name of Dinah's paternal grandmother, who was a daughter of Saul Wahl. And it is this Pesia, who acccording to UC was the mother of Judah Wahl's, who was in turn the father of Dinah. Furthermore, it does not appear that this Judah was of unknown paternity, as UC indicates that he was the son of Pesia and R. Meir Wahls (Walsch). The tree you shared, on the other hand shows Shmuel Yehuda Katzenellenbogen as her father (with an un-named wife) but does not indicate who his parents were.

So, as far as who is a sibling to who, it would seem that Dinah's mother of unknown name, would be a sister to Dinah's Aunt Hesia, who married Heschel. On the other hand, I think that Dinah would be a sibling to Rivke Gunzberg, as well as to the Wife of R. Abraham Heilprin.

According to UC, Chapter 1, pages 29-30, Dinah's siblings were 1) Wife of R. Abraham Heilprin, and 2) Rebecca (Rivke or "Rivele de Rebetzin"), the second wife of R. Naftali Herz Gunzberg.

Getting back to the 1st cousin issue, perhaps it is simpler than we might have thought? As it stands right now in Geni, one of the 2 Saul's is the son of Dinah (and Heschel), and the other Saul is the son of Dinah's sister Rebecca Gunzberg:

https://www.geni.com/path/Rabbi-Saul-Teomim+is+related+to+R-Saul-A-...

It does get confusing!

Claudia

I'm no longer confused because I believe what I said is correct :-)

What I mean by unknown paternity is that we know Yudah Zalman ben Meir, but not much more. To me the Wahl's means that he is spouse of a Wahl, not the he descends from the Wahl family.

Private User,

Well, you know you are usually a few thoughts ahead of me, so it may take me a while to catch up and really absorb it all. Maybe my brain is full, and there is no room for anything else to get in right now :).