ÁRPÁD(házi) Sophia - Origins

Started by Erica Howton on Friday, January 29, 2021
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I'm not going to argue either about the line back to Salomon, there's too many logical obstacles in the way, even if it's possible within the narrowest margins, it's not likely.

If Sophia was from Hungaria, she would more likely have been his relative than daughter, and even more likely, born in the same decade as him. ; )

The connection is Judith of Swabia > Otto > van Bergs. I would think Sophia local to her husband, but who knows. Maybe Judith brought a Hungarian lady with her to her second marriage location.

It would be interesting to see the Hungarian Chronicle.
When was it written, what editions are there?

The Hungarian Chronicle is adamant (in Caps!) that King Andrew’s seed was cursed, and King Solomon had no children. So I’m not going to argue with that. :)

And reading about the career of King Solomon we easily see why someone wrote that it was cursed. Solomon was as I have understood regarded as a pest by his own kin (who took the power) and a menace to others, a bigamist and wrongdoer. He allied with the Pechenegs in an effort to regain power and also attacked Constantinople with them.

Béla I and his sons Géza, Ladislaus and Lampert of course wanted to get rid of him and his seed forever.

Miroslav Marek is a genealogist who among other things created
http://genealogy.euweb.cz/

The Chronicle is a most fantastic read:
"... text has been preserved in five medieval codices, but none has reached the 1350s .

The text that survives in the Bible Code is interrupted during a sentence when Felicia Zách attempted an assassination attempt on the royal family ( Spring 1330 ).
The Teleki and Csepreghy-codes of Wallachia campaign ( 1330 autumn) to describe the middle of the line and the text block can also be canceled.

The text published in the Thuróczi Codex dates very succinctly to 1342 and ends after the coronation of Louis I.

....
Erica posted a link to the Kepes Kronika in hungarian
http://mek.oszk.hu/10600/10642/10642.htm

It is a most fascinating read. Some excerpts

"... King Andrew, too, paternal love overcame the truth: he broke his promise, which was not worthy of a king, and in the twelfth year of his reign, disabled from his old age, his son Solomon he anointed and crowned him king of all Hungary.

He did so to do this for the peace of the land, for the emperor would not give his daughter to his son Solomon if he did not crown him. ❧

When they then sang at the coronation of Solomon, "Be lord to your brethren ..." and Prince Bela understood through an interpreter that your little one, Solomon, had been appointed his lord, he was greatly unworthy. ❧

Others say that the sons of Prince Béla, Géza and László and all the chief men of the country, anointed Solomon king. But then there was hatred among them that provoked the tares, for the whisperers, whom they greatly like in our day, told the king that Solomon could only reign if he killed his brother Bela; on the other hand, Prince Béla was persuaded that this was the right time to acquire the kingdom, while Solomon was a little boy and his father was broken by old age and disease.

...
Prince Bela won, almost all the Germans were lost, their leaders were taken prisoner. Seeing that Béla's victory belonged to King Andrew, the Hungarians left King Andrew and switched to Prince Béla. King Andrew ran towards Germany, but could not escape; for he was captured at the Moson gate. And because he was carelessly kept in a mansion called Zirc in the Bakony forest, he died. He was buried in the monastery of the confessor of St. Ányos, founded by this king in Tihany, at Lake Balaton. But the Czech prince was also captured,
...
He harmed, unharmed and unharmed, also the wives, children, and all their possessions of those who followed King Solomon, that they might return to him and enjoy their goods in peace. Therefore, many also became adherents of and supported him. ❧ Out of a gracious willingness, he eased the burdens of the Hungarians: he waived the usual taxes and old debts from the obligatory services. Therefore, Hungary became rich above it, and raised its head above all the countries around it: it surpassed them all in wealth and glory.

....

King Solomon hurried to the ipa, the German emperor, and asked him to return him to the Hungarian kingdom. At the request of the emperor, the emperor bowed to Solomon with a noble army of the Roman Empire and a bright accompaniment to his imperial glory. Meanwhile, King Béla's son, Géza, as clever and prudent, withdrew with his two younger brothers to parts of Poland, because then he could not stop the attack of Solomon and the Germans. King Solomon thus entered the royal Hungary with the emperor without hindrance, and arrived safely in the royal capital, Fehérvár; there it was received with great respect by both the priesthood and the people from all over Hungary. The emperor then addressed the whole multitude of Hungarians for the sake of his son-in-law, King Solomon, renewing peace between them, and confirmed by an oath of faith; He gloriously crowned King Solomon on his paternal throne and placed him in his chair amidst the approval and cry of all of Hungary. Then the emperor returned home from the generous gift of King Solomon, enriched with the treasures of Hungary.
...

[The part below seems to have been entered a bit out of place .. how does the original vellum look?]
THAT QUEEN AND THE KING OF SOLOMON HAD NO CHILDREN

King Solomon and his brother David never had children, and in them the seed of King Andrew was torn; we believe that this came from a divine decree, because when Andrew first came to Hungary with his brother, Levente, to take possession of the country, he let the ungodly Vata and other evils kill St. Gellert and many Christians. Prince Géza gave birth to Kálmán and Álmos and daughters. For about thirteen years a quiet peace flourished between the king and the prince.❧ Meanwhile, the Czechs were filled with arrogance, they broke into the city of Trenčín, and then withdrew large prey from people and beasts. The king and prince considered this a great injustice, invading the Czech Republic with their armies. The Czechs did not dare to oppose them; the Hungarians destroyed almost the whole of the Czech Republic with fire and iron. There, Martin's son, in a brave Opos battle, laid out a huge knight's giant Czech; for this memorable deed he was then held in high esteem by the king and all the Hungarian chiefs. The king and the prince thus severely avenged the unrighteousness of the Czechs against their people, and returned to Hungary rejoicing in the great prey of the Czech prisoners.

.......

The king and princes Geza and Lazarus were on a rock near the city; the Hungarians brought before them the Pecheneg prisoners and the heads of the fallen, the horses and equipment; they began this at dawn on Thursday, but could not walk until the end of the sunset. This was done so that the Greeks and Bulgarians under siege would see how brutally the Hungarians killed the Pechenegs, whom they had hoped for, let them be terrified, and they shall give themselves and the city unto the king and to the princes.
...
He heard the humanity of the Greek emperor Prince Geza and sent ambassadors to him to make peace and friendship; the prince returned to him both the prisoners and all who had come down from the castle. However, the king of Greece did not send anyone to King Solomon; therefore in King Solomon the flame of envy against Prince Geza burned more and more. Ispian Vid also incessantly urged the king to chase Prince Geza, and then he could easily take the principality away from him. He told him he could do this easily because the king had far more heroes than the prince. He encouraged him not to procrastinate, or rather to hurry the matter, and with this proverb he excited the king: "Just as two sharp swords cannot fit in one sheath, so you two cannot rule in one country."❧ The angry words of Ispan Vid seduced the king, boiling hatred and strife within himself. From then on, he sought an opportunity to trap Prince Géza or go to war with him; but it was only further that the king took shape, and he let the prince into his principality with a sham friendship.

......

So as this army waited for Solomon to come, one morning the princes were meeting on horseback at the place where the stone chapel of St. Peter the Apostle now stands; they were considering how to fight. Well, as they stood here, a bright day saw a heavenly vision for St. Ladislaus; to which he said to his brother, Prince Geza, "Have you seen anything?" The response is, "Nothing." Then said St. Ladislaus, "As we stood and consulted, behold, the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and brought a crown of gold into his hand, and set it on your head; it is evident that victory is given to us; and the LORD shall give the kingdom and the crown unto thee. And Geza said unto him, If the LORD our God shall be with us, and shall defend us against our enemies, and shall see thy vision,
...
The Czech prince Otto, who risked his life for them, then returned to his homeland with a rich gift. He wept over him, for he could rightly mourn his only son, whose goods God had taken away, rebuking him with the words, "My dear son, you have never listened to my advice, nor to the advice of Ernyei, nor to your other followers; you always followed only Vid's word and behold you ruined yourself and yours! Not only did I always recommend and say: the crown of Hungary is enough for you, and give your brothers the duchy in peace. ❧ Now Vid could not be a prince, but you would not have a crown anymore. "Upon hearing this, the king was angry, he wanted to hit his mother in the face however, his wife took his hand. ❧ King Solomon has already understood that God does not help in his war; and already at night he hurried to Moson and Bratislava; these castles have long been confirmed. He also left his mother and wife here when he went to war; so he himself retreated here, fearing the princes himself, defeating him in battle.

....
Princes Géza and László then went to Fehérvár with their army; Kapuvár, Babót, Fehérvár and other castles were loaded with a guard of very strong heroes, and then, dismissing their army, they lived in Hungary. At that time, Prince Magnus, Géza, accepted the country's crown to encourage the Hungarians. After his coronation, he went to the place where the vision took place and consulted with his brother, László,
...
At that time the Pechenegs voluntarily asked King Geza to give them freedom, All of King Solomon's attacks will be repulsed, so he will not dare to move from Moson and Bratislava to disturb Hungary. ❧ King Geza promised them to give their request if they would fulfill what they had promised. The Pechenegs, with their leader named Zoltán, rode against King Solomon. And King Solomon called the German earl for help, and promised him money. Then, when he marched against the Pechenegs, the Count count saw how terrifying and frightening their eyes were, frightened, for he immediately remembered how miserably the Hungarians had lost leaders William, Poth, and Markart, so he formed to the king that during Lent he did not they fight, but if the king wills, they will only collide; however, if the Pechenegs overcame, he would hurry to the King's help without delay. So he settled with his army on the mountain of Vienna, watching the battle from there. The battle began, and the Pechenegs fled before King Solomon as the wax melted in the fire; many of them fell, others plunged into the swamp of Fertő, Zoltán fled with a few. Után After the defeat of the Pechenegs, the Earl asked Solomon for the money, but it did not give him anything, and even threatened to accuse the Emperor of not showing up in fear of the vile Pechenegs. The earl's name was Hernő, he rushed, he wanted to attack Solomon, but he was afraid of the emperor, so he withdrew and returned home sadly. to accuse the emperor of showing up in fear not even before the vile Pechenegs. The earl's name was Hernő, he rushed, he wanted to attack Solomon, but he was afraid of the emperor, so he withdrew and returned home sadly. to accuse the emperor of showing up in fear not even before the vile Pechenegs. The earl's name was Hernő, he rushed, he wanted to attack Solomon, but he was afraid of the emperor, so he withdrew and returned home sadly.

....
THE EMPEROR'S INCOME

Then King Solomon, fearing King Geza and his brothers, went into Styria with his treasures and his family; he left his mother and wife in the Admont cluster and then returned to Moson; he wanted to gather an army to attack his brothers. However, Solomon's affair declined day by day, and the affairs of them went well. Thus, confused, he directed his steps to the emperor to ask him for help to return to Hungary. Although he gave plenty of money to soldiers, the Germans and Italians did not go to the Hungarians with him because they were afraid. King Solomon then complained to the emperor about the loss of his kingdom, saying that he had been forcibly expelled from his kingdom, and there was not only injustice to him, but even more so to the emperor;❧ and said, "Hungary is thy country, inasmuch as thou hast made me king in it; as long as I reigned, I have offered the goods of the country to thy dominion in an annual tax as a token of my gratitude, and have served thee according to thy commandments. So come to Hungary, take revenge on your enemies, and take back your country. "

....
Solomon, wanting to praise the Hungarians, recklessly replied, "There are many," he said, "even better." The emperor said, "If this is the case and you face such heroes, you will not regain your country." ❧ When King Geza heard that the emperor had arrived in Vác, he had given wise counsel and left him to surround him, to bake the patriarch of Aquileia, for the emperor was most inclined to his advice, and also to the other German leaders, and promised them much money if the emperor was persuaded to return. The patriarch and leaders were softened by the gifts because they loved the gold, so they encouraged the emperor to return with all sorts of fabricated tales. ❧ For the patriarch spent spending a dream, and it is clear from the sense that the emperor's entire army would be lost in divine revenge if it did not return soon; but the leaders also told of heavenly admonitions and wailed the emperor that I did not even know what kind of trouble threatened him if he did not return home quickly. The next night, then, German leaders trained some of their cunning soldiers to make noise, beat their shields, and pretend there was a rebellion in the army. The soldiers did so; the emperor and the whole army were greatly frightened because they did not know of the falsely deceived and deceived. ❧ So there was a big mess in the camp all night. In the morning, the emperor called the patriarch and the leaders to the council to decide what to do. The money spoiled the patriarch and the leaders, so in every way he was instructed to turn back. The emperor, deceived by the deceitfulness, pretended to help Solomon further, but wrecked his ships and returned to Germany.

RUN OF SALAMON

King Solomon, disappointed in his hope, moved sadly to Bratislava. The kingdom was strengthened in the hands of King Geza, and from that time the captivity was called King Magnus; and he gave the duchy to his brother, László. ❧ Prince László besieged the castle of Bratislava for many days. Solomon's knights went out of the castle and fought László's knights; Salamon and László also went out, but exchanging their badges, they fought in the manner of a mediator.

It happened after László approached the castle in the southern silence. He saw Solomon coming, changed his armor, and guessed nothing, he went out in front of him, but László didn't recognize him either. Solomon's valiant men sat on the castle wall, looking at them. Solomon looked upon him as a simple nobleman, so he went out to fight him; but as soon as he came near and looked into his face, he saw two angels flying over László's head, flying with fiery swords and threatening his enemies. At the sight of this, Solomon fled to the castle. His heroes said to him, "Sir! What have we seen? We have never seen you run away from two or three enemies; what has happened now?" He said to them, "Know that I do not run from man, but he is not man, for he is protected by fiery swords." They were amazed to hear that. From then on, they became even more afraid of him.❧ Solomon's soldiers, driven by necessity, went to László; he, with royal generosity, graciously helped them and allowed them to return freely to their lord

.....
King Solomon invaded Bulgaria and the Greek border with the robber Cumans; there the army of the Greek emperor beat them miserably, and only a few of them fled. For when the Cumans saw the large armor, they were greatly frightened, and began to hurry to cross the Danube before the enemy surrounded them; as they had no armor, being lighter, they could move faster. However, Solomon and his men, as well as the other armored warriors, followed their advancing companions more slowly because heavy weapons prevented them. It was winter, the snow was falling thickly, their eyes filled with snow, and in the thick snowdrift they could not see their companions who were passing in front of them. They got lost and wandered here and there, but the enemy also followed them. ❧ When they arrived at an abandoned, empty castle, they boarded there and stayed there all day and all night. However, the enemy surrounded the castle from all sides. The besieged saw that they had to starve, they chose warrior death rather than starvation. So at dawn they rushed at the enemy, lost with their losers, and many of those who killed them also fell. ❧ King Solomon, with a few himself, barely escaped, ran, and crossed the Danube with ease, as he was frozen. Then he arrived at something big, where he told his men to rest the horses, rest a little. He himself put down his shield and pretended to return soon. He went into the dense dark forest; his men had no idea he departed from them: he never returned. The many adversities were broken, visited by the Holy Spirit: the adversities did not harden him any more, he did not fight with free will against the true judgment of God, but he felt the great merciful hand of a scolding God, he groaned from the memory of his deeds, and, as far as can be imagined by true human judgment, he lamented with a sorrowful heart to atone for his sins. ❧ A fortunate compulsion that drives to the right: for it is certainly true that whom the world hates, God loves. The noble body of King Solomon grew up in royal beauty: now it lies broken in dust and ashes; and he who once fought for temporal goods now seeks only the heavenly. For he spent all his life in pilgrimage, prayer, fasting, vigilance, labor, and devotion. ❧ It was once seen in Hungary during the time of King Kalman, but it disappeared immediately and never showed up again. ❧ He left the world for the Lord in Pola, in the city of Istria, where he is buried. His wife and mother rest in Admont. he repented with a sorrowful heart to give repentance for his sins

......

So in the chronicle we see that Andrew was unjust and killed christians,
he broke a promise and made the very young Solomon king.
Otherwise the german emperor would not give his daughter.

Bela seized power and beat Andrew. Bela is good and offers forgiveness.
But Solomon runs for help from the Emperor.After returning with an army he is crowned.

Andrew was evil and Solomon haf no sons. Bela was good and his son Geza had sons and daughters.

Geza bravely kills pechenegs and is awarded by the greeks. Solomon is envious.

Geza and his brothers get a message from an Angel sent from God
Solomon fled to Moson and Bratislava. solomon is decitful.
The Emperor doesn't back him anymore.

Then Solomon observes Laszlo being guarded by two angels with fiery swords.
Solomon flees.

Solomon teams up with robber Cumans but is beat by the Greeks, he
takes a run and disappeared. His wife and mother rest in Admont.

The chronicle is for sure written to justify Bela, Geza and the
dynasty coming after them.

We see that the German Emperor didn't have a succesful son in law.
And no chance of having any benefit from that marriage.

But Judith is still valid on the marriage market and is married off to
Poland. But what to do with the daugther? She is for sure not wanted in
Poland and certainly not in Hungary.

In sum: The Chronicle is not reliable as a source for information about the very unwanted loser, coward, deceiver etc. etc. ex-king Solomon and his foreign family.

What about this, is she conformed or not?

Adelaide, Margravin of Vohburg

daughter of
Judith of Swabia
and
Władysław I Herman

Judith habe die letzten Jahre ihres Lebens mit ihrer Tochter Adelheid, die von dort aus mit Markgraf Diepold von Vohburg verheiratet worden sei, in Regensburg verbracht, legt sich im Hinblick auf das Todesdatum nicht fest; da Adelheid aber, den Schlußfolgerungen des Autors zufolge, Diepold um 1110 geheiratet haben wird, geht er offenbar von einem sehr späten Todesjahr ihrer Mutter aus.

http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/salier_2/judith_...

Reidar Holmsen - isn’t it marvelous to find all this medieval political propaganda (National origin myths) disguised as genealogy? And the illustrations!

Here’s the English google translation of http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/salier_2/judith_...

"Empress Agnes (1043-1077) Source-critical studies"

The diploma for Hainburg was issued in 1058 in Regensburg on the way back from the Hungarian border, where, as part of a peace treaty between Hungary and the German Empire, the Hungarian heir to the throne, Solomon, was betrothed to Judith , the youngest daughter of Agnes . Judith lived in Regensburg from May or July 1074 to 1088 with short interruptions and, like her mother, is listed in the Regensburg Necrologies of St. Emmeran, Obermünster and Prüll (March 14th ). So the connections were at her command, the Agnes had built in Regensburg. Her own close relationships with St. Emmeran can be derived from the fact that, on the occasion of her marriage toDuke Wladyslaw Hermann of Poland in 1088, she took agospel bookmade in this monastery and commissioned by HEINRICH IV with her to the Polish court. which is now kept in the library of the cathedral chapter in Krakow. A letter from Gregory VII to the Hungarian Queen from January 1075 testifies tothe contacts between mother and daughter during Judith's time in Regensburg. Judith , as can be inferred from Gregor's letter, apparently asked her mother to support the Pope in the Hungarian throne dispute of her husband, King Solomon , to move.
In the event that, following Schwarzmaier's presumption, the Marienstift auf der Hainburg, located on the border of the German Empire with Hungary, was to be regarded as the Dotalgut of the youngest daughter Judith , which in my opinion is unlikely, there would be another possibility of transition conceivable in Bamberg: After the death of King Solomon of Hungary, Judith married Duke Wladyslaw Hermann of Poland for the second time ; she could have given Hainburg to her chaplain Otto, the later Bishop of Bamberg (1102-1139), who had accompanied her to Poland, who in turn could have passed it on to the Bamberg Church.
According to Balzer's convincing considerations, the second marriage of Judith , who had been the widow of King Solomon of Hungary since 1087 , to Duke Wladyslaw Hermann of Poland took place in 1088. Since the birth of three daughters from this marriage has been recorded, the year 1092 is the calculated term post quem. In contrast, Friese mentions the years 1093/95 ; Labuda, who assumes that Judith spent the last years of her life with her daughter Adelheid , who was married from there to Margrave Diepold von Vohburg, in Regensburg, does not specify the date of death; there Adelheidbut, according to the author's conclusions, that Diepold will have married around 1110, he evidently assumes that her mother died very late in the year.

The short answer to the question of Adelaide’s parentage is

This is the Master Profile for Adelaide, Margravin of Vohburg.
Curator Note from K. Wodyński (on hiatus) (11/10/2018):
According to the newest research, she was not a daughter of Władysław I Herman - and her parentage remains unknown. She was most likely a daughter of a Polish nobleman.

—-

In other words - Poles say no.

Here’s Polish Wikipedia in translation about Adelaide

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelajda_(%C5%BCona_Dypolda_III_von_V...

Adelaide (wife of Dypold III von Vohburg) [ edit ]
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Adelaide - the first wife of Dypold III , Count Vohburg , Nabburg and Cham .

She was Polish; according to the scientific literature, it most likely came from a Polish noble family. The hypothesis that she was identical to the third daughter of Władysław I Herman and Judyta Salicka was very popular . This hypothesis is currently rejected due to the fact that sources say that the husband of Władysław Herman's third daughter was a Pole and due to the lack of information about Adelaide's imperial origin in the so-called Tabula consanguinitatis Friderici I regis et Adele reginae .

Adelajda and Dypold III had a son, Dypold, and daughters Adela , Zofia, Eufemia and Juta.

Bibliography [ edit | edit code ]
K. Jasiński , Pedigree of the first Piasts , pub. 2, Poznań 2004, pp. 199–203.

From German Wikipedia with their 2005 citation for the marriage in German.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelajda_von_Polen

Adelajda of Poland , also Adelheid (* 1090 / 91 , † 1127 ) was by birth a Polish princess and by marriage Margravine on the Nordgau and Nabburg , vohburg and Cham .

Adelajda was the daughter of the Duke of Poland Władysław I Herman and Judith of Hungary . Her sister Agnes became Abbess of Quedlinburg . The foundation of the Reichenbach Monastery by her husband Diepold III. took place with their consent. In the Waldsassen Monastery there is a painting with her portrait, which was made in 1795 based on a template from Reichenbach.

From the marriage with the Margrave Diepold III. five children were born: [1] [2]

Diepold IV. († approx. 1130), ⚭ Mathilde von Bayern († after 1177), daughter of Duke Heinrich the Black ( Welfen )
Adela , heiress of the Egerland ⚭ I before March 2, 1147 in Eger , divorced in March 1153 in Konstanz , Friedrich I. Barbarossa († 1190) 1147 Duke of Swabia , 1152 German King, 1155 Emperor, ⚭ II Dieto von Ravensburg († after 1173), Guelph Ministerial
Euphemia († before 1144) ⚭ Heinrich III. Count of Winzenburg-Assel († 1146)
Sophia / Liutgard († 1148) ⚭ NN (Volkrat?) Count of Lechsmünd
Jutta ⚭ Friedrich IV. († 1148), Domvogt of Regensburg
Literature [ edit | Edit source ]
Robert Treml: Margrave Diepold III. - the founder of the Waldsassen monastery. In: Franz Busl (Ed.): Waldsassen - 850 years a place of grace. Hof 1983, ISBN 3-921615-56-9 , pp. 23–32.

Individual evidence [ edit | Edit source ]
^ Eduard Hlawitschka : Why was the marriage of Friedrich Barbarossa and Adela von Vohburg possible? In: German Archive for Research into the Middle Ages 61/2005, pp. 506–536, here: p. 528. http://www.digizeitschriften.de/dms/img/?PPN=PPN345858735_0061&...
^ Tobias Weller : The marriage policy of the German high nobility in the 12th century . Cologne / Weimar / Vienna 2004, ISBN 3-412-11104-X , plate 13 (see above).

OMG you also ended up on the cut knot of.. Adelaide, Margravin of Vohburg :D
I tried to document them, but there was no way to understand each other with (C)

"Poles say no" XD the best of the best of my my itanglish :D
pending request for administration from 2018 XD

Black Mechthild: The daughters of Heinrich III. and the Empress Agnes, in: Vinculum Societatis. Festschrift for Joachim Wollasch, 1991 Page 36-57 -

Black-Veldtrup, Mechthild: Empress Agnes (1043-1077) Source Critical Studies, Böhlau Verlag Cologne 1995, page 11-380 -

Boshof, Egon: The Salian. Verlag W. Kohlhammer Stuttgart Berlin Cologne 1987, page 169,255,269 -

Bruno's book of the Saxon Wars. Translated by Wilhelm Wattenbach, Phaidon Verlag Essen 1986, page 9, 83 -

Bulst-Thiele, Marie Luise: Empress Agnes, contributions to the cultural history of the Middle Ages and the Renaissance Edited by Walter Goetz Volume 52, Leipzig 1933 -

Die Salians and the Empire. Change in society and the history of ideas in the Salian empire. (Ed.) Stefan Weinfurter. Jan Thorbecke Verlag Sigmaringen 1991 Volume III Page 198 -

Goez Elke: Beatrix von Canossa and Tuszien. An investigation into the history of the 11th century, Jan Thorbecke Verlag Sigmaringen 1995, page 138 -

Hlawitschka Eduard: Investigations into the changes of the throne in the first half of the 11th century and the nobility history of southern Germany. At the same time clarifying research on "Kuno von Öhningen", Jan Thorbecke Verlag Sigmaringen 1987, page 56,169 -

Schnith Karl: Women of the Middle Ages in life pictures. Verlag Styria Graz Vienna Cologne 1997 Page 123 -

Schnith Karl Rudolf: Medieval rulers in life pictures. From the Carolingians to the Hohenstaufen. Verlag Styria Graz Vienna Cologne 1990 Page 204 -

Schwarzmaier Hans Martin: From Speyer to Rome. Stations and traces of life of the Salians. Jan Thorbecke Verlag Sigmaringen 1992, page 17, 81, 103 -

Schificke Detlev: European family tables New series Volume I. 1, Vittorio Klostermann GmbH Frankfurt am Main 1998 Plate 12 -

So what do Polish sources say about Adelaide?

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adela_von_Vohburg

Adela von Vohburg (born 1127 , died 1187 ), daughter of Dypold III , margrave von Vohburg, and his first wife Adelaide [1] . Adela was the first wife of Frederick Hohenstauf , known as Barbarossa (1122 - 10 June 1190), son of Frederick II , the Duke of Swabia, and Judith, daughter of the Prince of Bavaria, Henry IX the Black .

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adela_von_Vohburg

Adela von Vohburg (* before 1127 ; † after 1187 in Weissenau Monastery ) from the Diepoldinger-Rapotonen family was heiress of the Egerland and the first wife of the future Emperor Friedrich I Barbarossa , German queen and Duchess of Swabia .

Life [ edit | Edit source ]
Adela von Vohburg was a daughter of Margrave Diepold III. von Vohburg and his first wife Adelajda of Poland, who died in 1127 . [1]

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelaide_di_Vohburg

Adelaide was a German queen, being the first wife of Emperor Frederick Barbarossa . She was the heir of Egerland .

Adelaide was the daughter of Diepoldo III , Margrave of Vohburg and Adelajda of Poland , daughter of Ladislao Herman of Poland and Judith of Swabia [1] . His sister was Cunigonda († 1184), who married Ottokar III of Styria , whose son, Ottokar IV of Styria , was the last margrave of Styria and first duke of Styria thanks to the elevation of the margraviate by Frederick I. He belonged therefore to the lineage of the Rapotonids

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diepoldo_III_di_Vohburg

Diepoldo III was the eldest son of Diepoldo Vohburg II , Margrave of Nordgau and Giengen , and Luitgard of Zähringen , daughter of the Duke Berthold's . He belonged to the Rapotonidae lineage ...

He married before 1118 with Adelajda of Poland (1090 / 91-1127), daughter of Prince Ladislao Ermanno , with whom he had five children [1] [2]

——

So Barbarossa’s wife was from Adelaide, who is more often placed as daughter of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C5%82adys%C5%82aw_I_Herman but his 1st wife.

@Erica I can only refer to you by heart, that as you can see I had documented and I made the connection to a (C).
always from the TAB changes you will find the Private User disconnection and the written that she is not princess Maria ? of Poland .
T.T I never understood if he understood that is believed she is a sister, not the same T.T

I remember he had to translate I don't know what text to explain that he was right, and the other [(C) Günther Kipp ] didn't listen to me anymore [(Anymore:) ANIMORE:]

At the time (shortly before or after or maybe during) the dachshund gang had also made me freeze so I had major problems...

If you want my opinion, I think we need to stay aligned with accredited international theories, certainly in the presence of local evidence, cancel, but do not pursue immobility, whit "no it's no, I'll translate the text that says I'm right" and then 3 years go by! :D

Lol!

I have tried to get hold of that text in polish for two days, but in vain. I have not understood the theory that is referred to. I can have it translated if it has not previosly been translated into any other language.

I need the gang of dachshunds.

Is Agatha another theoretical daughter of Bad King Solomon?

Árpad(házi) Sophia

Erica Howton you're all doing a good source detective work. I hope not to have influenced you on that Agata-Sofia merge, but that profile was filled in really badly.
{[anyway here to say that I just thinking about the medieval consideration of women, and the possibility that not having male children, becomes not having descent, therefore not having children... Just a flash in the mind:]}

Poppo Graf von Roggenstein und Berg Name needs cleanup also, be my guest. Just be sure, many “also known as.”

Written genealogy tends to be patrilineal unfortunately, I have many parent less ancestresses. Medieval “princesses” were however important politically, both as bargaining chips, or apparently, as we see with Judith of Swabia, powerful in their own right.

We are more likely to encounter jumped up origins than lost princesses.

I am currently believing that is the case with Poppo’s tree. He really was not of the appropriate class & background to be marrying an Emperors grand daughter. Now, that’s as vague a supposition as trying to do chronology without birth dates ... but once we understand that Judith connects to von Berg by way of her counselor Otto, how the story of Sophia’s origins was constructed becomes more possible, yes?

m firstly ([before 1105]) ADELAJDA of Poland, daughter of Vladislav I Herman Prince of Poland & his second wife Judith-Maria of Germany] ([1090/91]-25/26 Mar [1127]). The Notæ Genealogicæ Bavaricæ refers to the first wife of "Marchio Dietpoldus" as "de Polonia"[119].
The primary source which confirms her parentage more specifically has not yet been identified. She is not one of Władysław's daughters referred to in the Chronicæ Polanorum[120]. The Fundatio Monasterii Richenbacensis names "Adelheidis" as wife of "marchio Dietpaldus" in connection with the foundation of Reichenbach[121]. The necrology of Admont records the death "VIII Kal Mar" of "Adelheit marchyonissa"[122].

Diepold III, markgraf von Vohburg

At least, they would have known eachother,,,
https://www.geni.com/path/Judith-of-Swabia+is+related+to+Diepold-II...

Erica wrote:
”... We are more likely to encounter jumped up origins than lost princesses.

What do you mean with jumped up origins?

”I am currently believing that is the case with Poppo’s tree. ”

??

”He really was not of the appropriate class & background to be marrying an Emperors grand daughter.”

How do we know that? Appropriate class? Well he was not a king.

”... but once we understand that Judith connects to von Berg by way of her counselor Otto,...”

?? Now do you refer to a very vague hypothesis by von Stälin?

That hypothesis seems not to be confutmed in any way. It is mentioned on medlands as is many other vague assumptions and premature conclusions tjat are expressed in an overly authoritative way.

If I remember right, medlands write that Poppos family were obscure. I find that term missleding.

Just trying to underastand what you wrote.

Since Salomon was a bad apple, with no money, land or support, teaming up with heathens a possible daugther of his would be hard to marry to a king.

Judith needed to be married away as a widow while she was still young enough.

Poppo would not be an impossible match at all.

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