ÁRPÁD(házi) Sophia - Origins

https://www.museumsgesellschaft-ehingen.de/upload/document/wappen-e...

The origin: Sophia was the daughter of King Solomon of Hungary and Judith - (Maria or Sophia) 17 of Franconia. Her mother Judith was the daughter of the couple Henry III, king and emperor in the Roman-German Empire from the house of the Salians, and Agnes von Poitou.18 She died as Duchess of Poland between 1093 and 1095, before she was Queen of Hungary .19 After the battle on the Lechfeld (955) and the campaign of Konrad II in 1030/3120, there were repeated clashes with the Hungarians on the south-eastern border of the empire. In 1046 Andreas, a nephew of Stephen I, became King of Hungary; the situation on the southeastern border remained uncertain.21 The campaigns of 1051 and 1052 did not calm the situation on the border. The escape of Heinrich III. Deposed Duke Conrad of Bavaria to Hungary in 1053, the relationship with the Hungarian king tightened even more.22 Andreas, however, strove for a lasting peace with the empire, since his position as King of Hungary was endangered by family disputes. In order to secure his successor, in 1057 he made his five-year-old son Solomon king.23 In June 1058, Hungarian ambassadors offered empress in Augsburg Agnes negotiated peace and asked a sister of Henry IV to be engaged to the Hungarian king's son. In September 1058 Agnes and Heinrich IV moved to the Hungarian border, where a peace treaty was signed and the four-year-old Judith was betrothed to Solomon.24 In 1063 Judith married King Solomon of Hungary. The wedding was celebrated in Stuhlweissenburg.25 The daughter from this marriage was given the mother's possible second name, Sophia.26 The birth of Sophia would therefore be between 1070 and 1075.

In 1074, Emperor Heinrich IV, Sophia's maternal uncle, was challenged in Hungarian matters. Solomon, the Hungarian king, had been ousted from the throne by his cousin Geza. He fled to his uncle Heinrich, who was supposed to bring him back to the throne with many promises. A planned campaign against Geza did not materialize, but Salomon was able to secure rule over the western border areas of Hungary. 27

Due to the turmoil in her Hungarian homeland, Queen Judith stayed in Regensburg from 1074 to 1088 (28), it can be assumed that Sophia was at least temporarily at her mother's court in Regensburg. This Sophia, daughter of the Hungarian King Salomon from the Vazul branch of the Arpaden and Judith von Franken, married Poppo, Count von Berg, Herr zu Roggenstein. Due to the age of the bride and groom, their marriage would have to be around the year 1085. The addition "von Roggenstein" should not have been understood as part of the family name at that time. Until the 11th century, a single name was common29, so it was more a reference to the place of residence.

Sophia and Poppo are still regarded as the "first parents" of the Berger dynasty. The first names Heinrich and Konrad, which later appear repeatedly in the Berg household, probably go back to Sophia's Salic origins. Sophia died on June 26th around 1110, Poppo on July 11th also around 1110.30 Both were later transferred to the Zwiefalten monastery after burial in an unknown location and were buried there in the chapter house of the monastery.31 It is obvious that as we shall see, to look for the “unknown” place of the burial of Poppo and Sophia in Wetenhausen Monastery.
Since the origin of Poppo from the Lauffener Grafhaus, as has generally been suspected in research up to now, is to be questioned, he must come from a different company. The addition Herr zu Rog-genstein in the European family tables requires a new consideration of Poppo's origin. Castles with the name Roggenstein, Rockenstein or Rochenstein occur several times in the Swabian-Bavarian region. When inquiring about the various noble residences, castles and castle stables, the assumption is solidified that it can only be about Roggenstein Castle near Wettenhausen in what is today the district of Günzburg. Unfortunately, I have not found any indication of the development of the ownership situation with regard to Roggenstein Castle. The castle was supposedly owned by the Diepoldinger / Rapotonen. It stood on the Kalvarienberg southwest of Wettenhausen and was destroyed in 1324.32

The foundation of Wettenhausen Monastery is still in the dark. The legend tells of a foundation by Gertrud von Roggenstein and her two sons Wernher and Konrad, although it has not been proven whether this led to the founding of the monastery.33 A countess, Gertrud von Roggenstein, is said to be with her sons Conrad and Wernher in 982 donated their estates in Ettlenschieß34 and Weidenstetten35 to Wettenhausen monastery.36 The monastery was first mentioned in a document around 1130 by the bishop of Augsburg, Hermann von Vohburg.37 Hermann von Vohburg was a cousin of Diepold III.38 and came from the family of the margraves of Cham (Rapotonen) 39, which could indicate a family connection to the Lords of Roggenstein

So far I find evidence supporting Sophia as child of King Solomon of Hungary to be weak.

The Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon,_King_of_Hungary is substantial, with ample references to primary sources. It makes clear that his marriage to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_of_Swabia Was not successful and that they were childless.

https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00313119&tr... Cites Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag, Marburg, Schwennicke, Detlev (Ed.). 12:62 Which is also cited at https://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p816.htm#... - obviously they are interpreting differently. Leo van der Pas’s site is very good, Cawley is quite hesitant on her parents.

So so far - a good disconnect, in my opinion.

There could be a hypothesis (to check thoroughly) that Árpád Zsofia was another member of the Hungarian royal family. She could have been Solomon’s sister, that would match more to the marriage policies of the Hungarian court in the 11th century. The German text about count Boppo doesn’t give any further details either.

I just saw that. There was also speculation that she was related to Judith of Swabia’s step son, explaining how Poppo & Sophia became a “power couple.” So there’s some smoke for origins but not a fire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europäische_Stammtafeln

Current volume names of the Europäische Stammtafeln - Neue Folge = European family trees - new series.

Europaische Stammtafeln, by Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, Vol. II, Tafel 154.
(1/2: Przemysliden, Askanier, Herzoge von Lothringen, die Häuser Hessen, Württemberg und Zähringen = Przemyslids, Askanians, Dukes of Lorraine, the Houses of Hesse, Württemberg, and Zähringen)

Europaische Stammtafeln, by Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, Vol. XII, Tafel 62.
(12: Familien des alten Herzogtums Schwaben = Families of the ancient Duchy of Swabia)

[Just so we know the recent changes to the profile:

ÁRPÁD(házi) Sophia:s profile updated by Carl Gustav Verbraeken. födelse yesterday 10:28 PM · v

ÁRPÁD(házi) Sophia was disconnected from her parents Solomon of Hungary och Judith of Swabia och syskon 10/ Agatha (Dght. of Salamon&Judith Maria ►Sophia) by Carl Gustav Verbraeken. yesterday 10:27 PM

ÁRPÁD(házi) Sophia:s profile updated by Carl Gustav Verbraeken. Name, surname, surname at birth. 4 Dec 2020 kl. 2:20 PM ·

ÁRPÁD(házi) Sophia was disconnected from her parents: Heinrich I. von Schweinfurt, Nordgau av Carl Gustav Verbraeken.
4 Dec 2020 kl. 2:19 PM

January 29 2021 ]

Erica posted this above.

From
Hans Peter Seibold, Woher komt das Wappen der Stadt Ehingen
https://www.museumsgesellschaft-ehingen.de/upload/document/wappen-e...

page 191

Queen Judith held out because of the confusion
in their Hungarian homeland from 1074 to 1088 in
Regensburg on, it can be assumed that
Sophia at least temporarily at her mother's court
was in Regensburg. [28] This Sophia, daughter of
Hungarian King Solomon from the Vazul branch
the Arpaden and Judith von Franken, married
Poppo, Count von Berg, Herr zu Roggenstein.

Due to the age of the bride and groom, their
marriage should be scheduled around 1085.

The addition «of Roggenstein »should not be part of the
Surname should have been understood. To the
11th century, single name was common to it
so it was more a reference to the
Residence. [29]

Sophia and Poppo are to this day as the
Considered the «first parents» of the Berger dynasty. The
recurring later in the Berg house

First names Heinrich and Konrad probably go
back to the Salic origin of Sophia. Sophia
died on June 26th around 1110, Poppo on one
July 11 also at 1110.[30]

28 Kaiser 2010, S. 202. Kaiser, Jürgen: Herrinnen der Welt – Kaiserinnen des Hochmittelalters, Regensburg 2010

29 Küss 2013, S. 32. Küss, Tobias: Die älteren Diepoldinger als Markgrafen in Bayern
(1077–1204), München 2013.

30 Weber 1955, S. 29. Weber, Franz Michael: Ehingen. Geschichte einer oberschwäbischen Donaustadt, Ehingen 1955.

The Royal Library appears to be partly closed now due to the corona-situation. Makes it very hard to get access to reference books.

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At his time Isenburg was seen as reliable. His tables were most useful.

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https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=https:...

Heinz Bühler's hypothesis that Sophia, the wife of the first known family member Poppo, emerged from the marriage of King Solomon of Hungary to the Salian Judith, and Hansmartin Decker-Hauff's slightly modified hypothesis that Sophia was a sister of Solomon is from Herbert Hummel in 1990 briefly, but exemplary rejected: On the origin of Sophias von Berg: In: Zeitschrift für Württembergische Landesgeschichte 49 (1990), pp. 433-435. 1First, the family relationships are nowhere documented, secondly, Hungarian and Polish sources emphasize the childlessness of Solomon in this marriage, thirdly, among other things, close marriages must be explained, and fourthly, the daughter of a marriage entered into in 1063 could not have had children with a husband who had already died in 1075. 2

Therefore, the speculation that the Counts of Berg would have taken over the arms of the Arpaden , collapses. After all, the author rightly rejects the relationship with the Lauffener Grafenhaus that Decker-Hauff brought into play.

The remarks on the Counts of Roggenstein, the alleged founders of the Augustinian canons of Wettenhausen, are absurd. The author refers to a picture in a Siebmacher coat of arms book from the 18th century. 3 It corresponds to the monastery coat of arms of Wettenhausen, as shown, among other things, by the early modern image of the monastery. Contemporary sources do not know of such counts, and of course the coat of arms is a later fiction.

The nonsensical addition "Herr zu Roggenstein" in the European family tables for Poppo is made uncritically as the starting point for considerations on the relationships between the Counts of Berg zu Wettenhausen. Where does this name come from? I can already find it in a family tree with Karl Hopf (Atlas p. 19, GBS ), which refers to Stälin (II, p. 354, Freiburg University Library), where such a fable can of course not be found. Raiser as early as 1823 (Guntia, p. 33, GBS ) stated that the title of Roggenstein does not appear among the Bergers. Eberl doesn't know anything about it either.

Unspeakable entry on Myheritage.com

The above is extracted from https://archivalia.hypotheses.org/123420

"Boppo grauffe zuo berg" - note on Konrad Grünenberg's book of arms

Author: Klaus Graf
Historian and archivist

17th May 2020
Categories Auxiliary sciences

This 2005 table I believe is the basis for the original Geni entry, the site has an extensive bibliography.

http://genealogy.euweb.cz/arpad/arpad1.html

D1. Vazul (Basil), Duke between March and Gran, +1037; m.N, from Tátony family /OR/ a woman who may (or may not) have been dau.of Tsar Samuel of the Bulgarians

E1. Levente, the last member of this family never to become a Christian, *ca 1012, +1046/47

E2. András I "the Catholic", King of Hungary (1046-60) -cr 1046, *ca 1014, +Zirc 1060, bur Tihany; 1m: a non-Christian Hungarian woman; 2m: 1038 Anastasia Yaroslavna of Kiev (*ca 1021/22, +?)

F1. Adelaide, *ca 1040, +27.1.1062; m.1057 King Wratislav II of Bohemia (+14.1.1092)

F2. [2m.] King Salomon of Hungary (1063-74) -cr (twice) 1057 and 1063, *1052, +k.a.(Balkan) 1087; m.1063 Judith-Maria of Germany (*1047, +ca 1100)

G1. Zsófia, +ca 1110; m.Count Poppo von Berg

F3. [2m.] David, *after 1053, +after 1094

F4. [illegitimate] György, who, according to Europaeische Stammtafeln, went to Scotland in 1055 and became ancestor of the Drummond family. E.S.cites a 1959 work published in Warsaw as the source for this. I know that it has long been asserted that the Drummond family was founded by a Hungarian who returned to Britain with Edward Atheling, so this may be true.

Cross post from “historic dups” discussion. Let’s keep Sophia etc to this discussion.

—-

https://www.geni.com/discussions/158450?msg=1446713

& and what about the disconnection between ÁRPÁD(házi) Sophia & her father
Solomon of Hungary ?!?

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Carl Gustav Verbraeken C
yesterday at 4:31 PM
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Medlands says that Sofia’s parents are uncertain
AND that king Solomon was born in 1053, 3 years after Sophia’s birth. She can’t have been his daughter. Most of the other changes are estimations to avoid inconsistenties. Since the html-tree they are all visible and should not be allowed.

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Livio Scremin
yesterday at 5:19 PM
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but that ÁRPÁD(házi) Sophia was born in 1049 you wrote it, based on what?

evidently the area has dates set at random, based on nothing, like rubber bands to adapt them to each other, and each passing noob adapts one to the other based on other nothing...
...until the best noob of all passes, which also starts to cut the only thing mentioned provable by historians.

Therefore the mother of all questions is:
-why ÁRPÁD(házi) Sophia is born in 1049 by Carl Gustav Verbraeken
..so much certainly 1049, as to cut the connection of the historians as well!?
{1million$ question}

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Carl Gustav Verbraeken C
yesterday at 5:47 PM
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Of course, we must remain open for better estimations. Nobody is absolutely sure for now that Sophia was born in 1049. But I doubt very much that any scientifically respectable historian can present 7 generations in 1 century. Medlands doesn’t make us any wiser either. Anything that doesn’t generate contradictions -too much of them would make Geni irrelevant and scientifically worthless- is welcome here, feel free to make a suggestion, perhaps she was Solomon’s daughter indeed, but most probably we’ll have to give up some of her other relations then. It doesn’t look like it.

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Carl Gustav Verbraeken C
yesterday at 6:13 PM
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That Sofia was the daughter of king Solomo is stated on the french wikipedia. But on the English, Hungarian, German , Dutch and Italian wikipedia we find that there was no posterity.

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Ulf Martinsson
Today at 6:35 AM
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"Of course, we must remain open for better estimations. Nobody is absolutely sure for now that Sophia was born in 1049."

It is chronological possible to have this line. Born 1053
Solomon of Hungary
married 1063
His child earliest biological possible born at 1067 (a man can have a child at the age of 14, not likely before that, learn about biology, health, economic wellfare, love) Sophia
ÁRPÁD(házi) Sophia
grandchild born between 1080 1082, a mother at the age of 13-14 is not unlikely,
Heinrich I (Berg) von Berg-Schelklingen, Grave
Salome born before 1101
Salomea of Berg

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Ulf Martinsson
Today at 6:47 AM
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Given that the years in the sources actually might be wrong, or inaccurate by 1-5 years, but still used as they are presented, the line is still both chronological and biological possible.

I’m re posting https://www.geni.com/discussions/158450?msg=1446871 so the tags to profiles come through.

"Of course, we must remain open for better estimations. Nobody is absolutely sure for now that Sophia was born in 1049."

It is chronological possible to have this line. Born 1053
Solomon of Hungary to Judith of Swabia (she married 2nd to Władysław I Herman

His child earliest biological possible born at 1067 (a man can have a child at the age of 14, not likely before that, learn about biology, health, economic wellfare, love) Sophia
ÁRPÁD(házi) Sophia

grandchild born between 1080 1082, a mother at the age of 13-14 is not unlikely

Heinrich I von Berg-Schelklingen, Grave

Salome born before 1101

Salomea of Berg

A reminder when trying to assign birth dates (an unhappy proposition in the medieval tree) - child marriage was practiced, so children birth dates work better. But it looks like Sophia, if she was an Arpad, was born about 1067.

However Hungarian and Polish sources do not think she was Judith of Swabia’s child.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Clan_Drummond

According to E.S. and other sources,György was the son of a Non-Christian marriage of Endre I (András I or Andrew I), afterwards, Apostolic King of Hungary, to a Hungarian woman, before Endre 's conversion to the Roman Catholic faith. Endres subsequent Christian marriage to a Russian Orthodox Princess, rendered the non-Christian children of his first marriage illegitimate under Catholic Canon law, and therefore with no rights to the now Christian Hungarian Throne. Consequently, György was obliged to leave Hungary, settling in Scotland, and founding the Drummond family, possibly named from the lands of Druiman which were granted to him either by MacBethad, or Malcolm III of Scotland. His choice of Scotland was very likely linked to the exiled English Royal House, since they had previously resided at the Court of István (Stephen I), King of Hungary, and after the submission of Harold II of England to William the Conqueror, Duke of Normandy in December 1066, arrived in Scotland where they were warmly received by Scotland's King Mael-Coluim III who married Edgar's sister Margaret in 1070.[clarification needed]

If the account given by Europaeische Stammtafeln is based on fact, then the present Earl of Perth, Chief of Clan Drummond, is a living representative of the original male line of the Royal House of Árpád, the founding dynasty of Hungarian kings.

I should clarify the speculated affinity (not genealogy) between Poppo & Judith of Swabia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_I,_Count_of_Berg

Henry I, Count of Berg-Schelklingen (circa 1073 – 24 September 1115) was a Bavarian nobleman who ruled Berg Castle in Ehingen, Bavaria. His parents were Poppo, Count of Berg-Schelklingen, and his wife Sophia, who is sometimes claimed to be a Princess of Hungary - an otherwise unattested daughter of Solomon, King of Hungary and Judith of Swabia, but this is highly unlikely for chronological reasons. The historian Christoph Friedrich von Stälin theorised that their great political power despite humble origins was due to kinship with Bishop St. Otto of Bamberg, who was also Judith's chaplain after her marriage to Władysław I, Duke of Poland, with whom she had a daughter Adelaide, who married Henry's brother-in-law Diepold III, Margrave of Vohburg and gave birth to Adelaide of Vohburg, the first wife of Frederick Barbarossa.

—-

And notice - Sophia’s son is born circa 1073 - which is the circa date for “her” birth if she’s Judith’s child.

Oye.

This affinity is also mentioned by Cawley.

C. GRAFEN von BERG, MARKGRAFEN von BURGAU

The main centre of operations of the Grafen von Berg was near the town of Ehingen, on the river Danube, about 15 kilometres south-west of Ulm and about 40 kilometres south-east of Tübingen. The family acquired the Markgrafschaft von Burgau (about 20 kilometres east of Ulm) in the early 13th century, and the county of Schelklingen to the north of Ehingen in the mid-13th century. The Grafen von Berg enjoyed sufficient influence in the early 12th century to arrange marriages into the Polish and Bohemian royal families. The reason why a relatively obscure Swabian comital family was able to arrange these high profile marriages has not been explained. Stälin suggests that they were arranged by Otto Bishop of Bamberg who, before his appointment as bishop, had accompanied Judith of Germany (sister of Emperor Heinrich IV) for her marriage to Władysław Herman Prince of Poland and subsequently maintained his contacts with the eastern European Slavic rulers. Stälin speculates that Bishop Otto, whose family origin is not known with certainty, was closely related to the Berg family[201]. The family’s influence in imperial court circles persisted during the later 12th century with four of the sons of Diepold [II] being appointed bishops of Passau (two), Würzburg and Freising.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/WURTTEMBERG.htm#_Toc514509820

——

So if we accept Henry’s birth date of c 1073, subtract 15 years, we see a possible birth date for Sophia of 1058.

My understanding for maturity of medieval European women (nutrition and so on) is a birth before age 15 is highly unusual and remarked in history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Bamberg

Otto of Bamberg (German: Otto von Bamberg, Polish: Otton z Bambergu; 1060 or 1061 – 30 June 1139) was Bishop of Bamberg and a missionary who, as papal legate, converted much of medieval Pomerania to Christianity.

According to scarce contemporary sources, Otto was born into a noble (edelfrei) family which held estates in the Swabian Jura. A possible descent from the Franconian noble house of Mistelbach or a maternal relation with the Hohenstaufen dynasty has not been conclusively established. As his elder brother inherited their father's property, Otto prepared for an ecclesiastical career and was sent to school,[1] probably in Hirsau Abbey or one of its filial monasteries.

When in 1082 the Salian princess Judith of Swabia, sister of Emperor Henry IV, married the Piast duke Władysław I Herman, he followed her as a chaplain to the Polish court. In 1091 he entered the service of the Henry IV; he was appointed the emperor's chancellor in 1101[2] and supervised the construction of Speyer Cathedral. ...

——

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_of_Swabia

Judith of Swabia (Hungarian: Sváb Judit, Polish: Judyta Szwabska; Summer 1054 – 14 March ca. 1105?), a member of the Salian dynasty, was the youngest daughter of Emperor Henry III from his second marriage with Agnes of Poitou. By her two marriages she was Queen of Hungary from 1063 to 1074 and Duchess of Poland from 1089 to 1102.

This is from The Hungarian Chronicle.

http://mek.oszk.hu/10600/10642/10642.htm

THAT QUEEN AND THE KING OF SOLOMON HAD
NO CHILDREN

King Solomon and his brother David never had children, and in them the seed of King Andrew was torn; we believe that this came from a divine decree, because when Andrew first came to Hungary with his brother, Levente, to take possession of the country, he let the ungodly Vata and other evils kill St. Gellert and many Christians.

To look again at Sophia’s age estimate, her son https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_I,_Count_of_Berg

“ Henry married around 1090 to Adelaide of Mochental, daughter of Diepold II, Margrave of Vohburg and Liutgard of Carinthia. During the 1090s Henry and Adelaide had three sons and three daughters, who married highly influential nobles from the Houses Přemyslid of Bohemia and Piast of Poland.”

So he’s having children in the 1090s, meaning he cannot have been born in the 1080s. So he’s born perhaps the 1070s, and his parents a generation before (the 1050s).

Thank you for your wise and solid research, Erica.

Carl Gustav Verbraeken Thank you for your curating. Medieval Central Europe is not my usual Geni beat, but I’m glad for the variety.

Suddenly wiki become a trusted source.

"Henry married around 1090 to Adelaide of Mochental, daughter of Diepold II, Margrave of Vohburg and Liutgard of Carinthia. During the 1090s Henry and Adelaide had three sons and three daughters, who married highly influential nobles from the Houses Přemyslid of Bohemia and Piast of Poland."

No dates of birth specified for anyone but SALOME (before 1101-27 Jul 1144).

HEINRICH [I] (-Zwiefalten 24 Sep before 1116, bur Zwiefalten). Ortlieb's Chronicon of Zwiefalten names "Heinricus de Berge" as son of "Bobbonis comitis et Sophiæ ipsius uxori"[206]. Graf von Berg. He became a monk at Zwiefalten. The necrology of Zwiefalten records the death "VIII Kal Oct" of "Heinricus com senior de Berge…sepultus in Capitolio...cum patre suo Poppone et fratribus suis" and his donation of “curiam Oppinthal”[207]. m ADELHEID von Mochental, daughter of [DIEPOLD [II] von Giengen Markgraf im Nordgau & his wife Liutgarde von Zähringen] (-1 Dec [1125]). The primary source which confirms her precise parentage has not yet been identified, although the following necrology entry indicates her possible family origin. It is, however, unusual for a deceased married lady to be referred to in contemporary necrologies with a comital title derived from her birth family. It is therefore possible that the reference to “Mochental” relates to an otherwise unrecorded second husband. The necrology of Zwiefalten records the death "Kal Dec" of "Adelheit com de Mochintal et c v, mater Salome ducisse"[208]. Heinrich & his wife had six children:

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/WURTTEMBERG.htm#_Toc514509820

Look further down the tree if you’re going to calculate estimated birth dates.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladislaus_I,_Duke_of_Bohemia

By his wife Richeza of Berg (died 27 September 1125),[4] daughter of Count Henry I of Berg. They had:

*Svatava
*Vladislav II of Bohemia (c. 1110 – 18 January 1174), King of Bohemia[4]
*Děpold I of Jamnitz (died August 1167)[4]
*Jindřich (Henry)[4] (d. after 1169), married to Margaret. His son Bretislav became bishop of Prague and later duke of Bohemia as Bretislav III.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladislaus_II,_Duke_and_King_of_Bohemia

(Plenty of citations in these articles)

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/WURTTEMBERG.htm#_Toc514509820

v) RICHINZA (-27 Sep 1125). Berthold's Chronicon of Zwiefalten names (in order) "Richinza ductrix Boemiæ, Sophia ductrix Moraviæ, Salome ductrix Poloniæ" as sisters of "Heinricus comes [et] Rapot", specifying in the subsequent paragraph that Richinza was "uxor Vlatizlaus qui et Lauzlan dux Boemiæ"[223]. The necrology of Zwiefalten records the death "V Kal Oct" of "Richinza ductrix Boemie filie Heinrici comitis senioris"[224]. m ([1110]) VLADISLAV I Duke of the Bohemians, son of VRATISLAV II Duke of the Bohemians & his third wife Swiętoslawa [Svatana] of Poland (-12 Apr 1125, bur Prague St Maria).

—

If she’s marrying 1110, a birthdate in the 1090s is a reasonable estimate.

Geni is giving a huge variance range, but still, perhaps best to let the machine guess.

Erica Howton

Richeza of Berg (Czech: Richenza z Bergu; c. 1095 – 27 September 1125).
Her son
Vladislaus II or Vladislav II (c.1110 – 18 January 1174) what about born ca.?
Are there ANY record of that, seems to be just a wild guess again, mentioned secondly 1138, had his reign from 11 January 1158 – 1172, and died 18 January 1174.
Frederick, Duke of Bohemia, was born ca. 1142.

Secondly, childmarriages was more like a standard in this time among the elite, who says what the age of the wife really was when she married? Marrying a child in 1110, or an adult is a big difference.

VLADISLAV (-12 Apr 1125, bur Prague St Maria). The Annalista Saxo names (in order) "Bolezlaum, Borivoi, Wladizlaum et Sobezlaum" as the four children of Duke Vratislav by his Polish wife[169]. The Chronica Boemorum names (in order) "Boleslavum, Borivoy, Wladizlaum, Sobezlavum" as the four children of "Zustavam, Kazimir Poloniorum ducis natam" and "Wratislaus dux"[170].

He succeeded in 1109 as VLADISLAV I Duke of the Bohemians. The Annales Gradicenses record that "Borivoy" was expelled in 1116 and replaced by "fratre Wladizlao", but that Borivoy returned in 1117 only to be replaced again in 1120 in favour of "Wladizlaus"[171]. The Chronica Boemorum records the death "II Id Apr 1125" of "Wladizlaus", and his burial place[172]. The Annales Gradicenses record the death "1125 II Id Apr" of "dux Wladizlaus pius et misericors ac humilis"[173].

The Cronica Principum Regni Boemiæ records the death in 1125 of "Wladislaus…filius Bretislai", adding that he founded "monasterium in Kladruby"[174].

m ([1110]) RICHINZA von Berg, daughter of HEINRICH I Graf von Berg & his wife Adelheid von Mochental (-27 Sep 1125). Berthold's Chronicon of Zwiefalten names (in order) "Richinza ductrix Boemiæ, Sophia ductrix Moraviæ, Salome ductrix Poloniæ" as sisters of "Heinricus comes [et] Rapot", specifying in the subsequent paragraph that Richinza was "uxor Vlatizlaus qui et Lauzlan dux Boemiæ"[175].

Duke Vladislav I & his wife had four children:

a) SVATANA [Liutgarda] (-19 Feb after 1126). The Chronica Boemorum records the marriage in Jul 1124 of "dux Wladizlaus natam suam primogenitam Suatavam" with "Fridrico"[176]. The primary source which confirms her husband's identity and parentage has not yet been identified. m (Jul 1124) as his first wife, FRIEDRICH [IV] Domvogt von Regensburg, son of FRIEDRICH [III] Domvogt von Regensburg & his wife Liutgard --- (-11 Apr 1148, bur Jerusalem). He died on the Second Crusade.

b) VLADISLAV (-18 Jan 1174, bur Strahow). His parentage is confirmed by the Annales Gradicenses which record that "Wladizlaus filius Sobezlai ducis" was enthroned in Moravia after the expulsion of "Lupoldus dux"[177]. He succeeded in 1140 as VLADISLAV II Duke of Bohemia. Crowned King of Bohemia at Regensburg 18 Jan 1158.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BOHEMIA.htm#VladislavIdied1125

"If she’s marrying 1110, a birthdate in the 1090s is a reasonable estimate."

Once again, we can not make estimations correctly from when a daughter married in this time. We need actual confirmed dates on their childrens births to do that. Above in the sources, (not wikipedias guesstimates), we lack real dates of the main profiles that we need, but from the dates of the grandchildren, we will get the fact that the discrepancy still lies within what's possible to have the speculated line back to Solomon of Hungary.

At the other hand, we see when they lived from the marriages, existed, but it's not good enough to determine their actual exact age. SVATANA [Liutgarda] (-19 Feb after 1126).
m (Jul 1124), was she 8 year, 10, 14, 18, or 20 at the time of marriage?
Make a good guess but not from todays accepted norms of models in comparative evaluations, do it from that time epoch.

Agree, it’s probably better to leave blank if we don’t know the date, although Geni’s “after - before” tool is handy. What I got from the dating exercise is a better understanding of why scholars object to the speculative connection on chronological grounds. It really looks like Sophia and Judith were contemporaries, and only with a great stretch daughter - mother.

The Hungarian Chronicle is adamant (in Caps!) that King Andrew’s seed was cursed, and King Solomon had no children. So I’m not going to argue with that. :)