Rabbi Akiva Hakohen Katz, ABD Saloniki (Alter of Salonika) - Born in Spain?

I have just now seen an article in the Encyclopedia Judaica about R' Akiva HaKohen of Ofen (i.e. Buda: the grandson of R' Akiva the Elder). This article suggests that R' Akiva of Ofen's father was Menahem, rather than Yitzach as shown on this GENI tree. Has anybody investigated this? Who was Menahem HaKohen? Does this raise a question regarding the pedigree shown currently on GENI? Here is the article and the sources are listed there: https://go-gale-com.i.ezproxy.nypl.org/ps/retrieve.do?tabID=T003&am... If this URL doesn't work, you can find the article on page 563 of Volume1 of the 2nd Edition of the Encyclopedia. These are the sources listed there: S. Kohn, A zsidók története Magyarországon (1884), 227–8; S. Bűchler, A zsidók története Budapesten (1901), 57–58; idem, in: Magyar-Zsidó Szemle, 27 (1910), 82–83; B. Mandl, in: Mult és Jövő, 25 (1935), 316; MHJ, 2 (1937), 537–8; A. Schreiber, Hebraeische Kodexueberreste in ungarlaendischen Einbandstafeln (1969), 122.

Private User

In all the rabbinic literature I have read it is written that his father's name was Yitzchak, I have never read about the possibility that his father's name was Menachem. There is also the possibility that his father had two names: Yitzchak Menachem.

It is possible to check in the names of his children and grandchildren whether any of them are named Menachem (although even then this does not mean anything, it is a common Jewish name, and it is possible that one of them is named after an ancestor of his mother)

YDNA Update....in glancing over the post history, it looks like I did not update the results from Eli Rubin's 37 marker YDNA test, to wit, he is definitely on haplogroup branch J1 and based on his matches at the 37 marker level, I am confident saying he is in the P58 sub-branch and the Y5400 branch below that and the ZS2374 branch below that.

While we're on the subject, if anyone has a clue as to why the branch of Shimshon Katz-Rubin (Shach grandson) came to use the Rubin surname, please let me know.

Private User I second that.

Thank you Debra Katz

Debra Katz
I'm not very good at DNA tests, but
My DNA test is at
Private User

I think Adam wrote to me that I am also in the branch of Rabbi Akiva Katz

To clarify the prior post: based on a confirmed y-group of J-M267 plus a FamilyFinder y-group study, I have made an educated guess for the Wartski HaCohen line as either J-ZS2374 or J-BY32850.

If this holds true then according to the Index of Kohenite Lineages, there are six possibilities: 1) Turisk-Prague I Line (Heller-Kahana), 2) Hanau Line (David Hanau HaCohen), 3) Ratisbona "A" Line (Rapaport HaCohen), 4) Ratisbona "B" (Tiferet Shlomo of Radomskers), 5) Austrasia Line (no rabbinical line yet identified), 6) One of several lines for which no y-group has been identified.

The project is working on a hypothesis that the Hanau and Turisk-Prague I Lines are in fact extensions of the Budapest Line of R' Akiva Katz, but this has not yet been proven. If this holds true then all three lines would be y-line descendants of R' Akiva Katz.

Sorry to be so complex, but that is the nature of genetic history.

Private User

Thank you very much,
in order to be sure that I understood (at least in part) what you wrote, should I still write in my profile:
Y-DNA Group: group J-Z2215 sub-tree of the J-M267 macrogroup
As you told me to write, or should I change the writing?

Thanks

Haim, J-Z2215 is still accurate as a sub-group of J-M267. They are close to each other on the tree, and more or less functionally equivalent, but more people are familiar with J-M267 (because most people test ydna at FTDNA and J-ZZ215 is not used as a marker by FTDNA). To be better understood I use J-M267 in everyday conversation.

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski
By "My DNA test is at
Adam Cherson"
-- -- Do you mean the FTDNA kit linked to Adam's profile is the Kit analyzing your DNA, not a Kit analyzing his DNA?
Or what do you mean?

Private User

O.K.
THANKS

Private User

I sent the RAW file of my DNA test result to Adam

Private User Haim is saying that his Ancestry test results have been transferred to FTDNA and they are included in the study group I host via FTDNA.

Thanks, Haim and Adam.

Eli Rubin

Here is a viable hypothesis for how the surname Rubin came to be (this is from another Rubin family research, not your Kohenite line, but the same logic seems valid):

A book devoted to ....Rabbi Yaakov Rubin ABD Linsk ....mentions that the surname Rubin was originally spelled as ראבין in Hebrew, and only later was it spelled as רובין. The surname is derived from the German word for rabbi. Interestingly, we see this original spelling of the Rubin name ראבין on a grave in Tarnow for the oldest known Rubin family grave in the city: Tzvi Hirsch Rubin (~1851 - 1884).

I'm sure you have considered this before, but for now this seems to be the only explanation: the line became Rubin c 1800, based on Rabin, and then this was back-applied by genealogists to the earlier line, before surnames. What do you think?

My uncle mentioned this once as a possibility that he had heard. It would be interesting if this spelling was used on a hakohen rubin grave...

what book mentions this

The name of the book is not mentioned in the powerpoint slide I quoted from.

Private User

Naftali Wakstein called me today and told me that either this week or next he is publishing an article in the newspaper about my family Wartski Hachoen

I suppose then we will be able to understand things more clearly...

One thing I know very well: that Rabbi Yitzhak Katz, the son-in-law of the Maharal of Prague, was not a descendant of Rabbi Akiva Katz, and this is a mistake

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski I look forward to reading Naftali Wakstein's article. Can you please sketch your understanding of the pedigree of Rabbi Yitzhak Katz, the son-in-law of the Maharal of Prague? If he is not a descendant of Rabbi Akiva, then who are his forbears? Thanks.

Private User

To the best of my knowledge, until Rabbi Gershom HaCohen (including him)
Rabbi Gershom HaCohen Katz, [of Prague]
The information is correct, but Rabbi Gershom Katz was not the son of
HaGaon Rabbi Akiva HaCohen Katz, of Ofen

Yes, I know that we are descendants (son after son) of Rabbi Chaim Katz,and he was
מבעלי התוספות
I am not sure that all the generations from Rabbi Gershom Katz to Rabbi Chaim Katz are known
I long to read the article and learn from it, there is nothing left but to wait a short time

FYI,
FTDNA appears to now be calculating yDNA haplogroups based on trace amounts of Y chromosome data, by default, without requiring one to request further testing, although further testing would solidify the results.

Essentially, if autosomal DNA (Family Finder) testing did include a trace amount of Y chromosomal SNP marker data, FTDNA will provide, retroactively and forwardly, a haplogroup.

This should help minimize obstacles for gathering ydna haplogroups of descendants of certain lineages.

Thought I would share tho highly likely folks here are already aware.

Apropos Rabbi Gershom HaCohen Katz, [of Prague] here is something I found in Otto Muneles book on inscriptions from Prague:

"As for Perles's claim, that one of Rabbi Akiva's sons, Gershon, is the branch of the Gershuni family, for now we have no way of deciding whether this is true. It is appropriate to bring here the records in the MemorBuch that refer to Gershon HaCohen, as well as the inscriptions in which the Gershuni family is mentioned: [presents various documents showing that Gershuni family didn't ever refer to being descendants of Akiva and that Gershon HaCohen seems to have been unconnected to the printers]...It seems, therefore, that there is no connection between this Gershuni family, which Zunz called by the name 'Gerzuniden' and the family of Gershon HaCohen" Otto Muneles, Inscriptions from Old Cemetry of Prague, # 65. According to this report by Muneles there are two Gershon's: Rabbi Gershom HaCohen Katz, [of Prague] and Gerson Herman Salomon Katz Cohen

Private User

Because Naftaly Waksteion is also a descendant of the Maharal from Prague through his son-in-law Rabbi Yitzchak Katz, he thoroughly researched part of the branch (the branch he belongs to, the branch is through ancestral mothers, it is not about son after son).

I asked him several times to check my branch carefully, and to check whether I am with absolute certainty a son after a son of Rabbi Yitzchak Katz - the son-in-law of the Maharal of Prague

Yesterday he told me on the phone that he checked and with 100% certainty that I am his descendant son after son.

I am eagerly awaiting the article, it may contain new details, especially on the side of my great-grandmother (2) who is from the Kroll family, and there may be findings that I do not know about the family of my grandfather's mother

Private User

I think that through the article things will become clear, if he calls me I will ask him about Rabbi Gershom Katz, but I remember very well that he told me that Rabbi Yitzhak Katz - the son-in-law of the Maharal from Prague is definitely not a descendant of Rabbi Akiva Katz..

Thanks, Haim. I have read that Gershom and Gershon are used interchangeably in genealogical records. Is this your perception as well?

Private User

I don't know, if Naftali Vokstein calls me I will ask him, I believe the article will address the subject

I haven't heard from him today, he employs researchers in Poland, and I asked him to research my branch carefully so that there won't be a mistake

I hope that in the next few days - at the end of next week at the latest I will know details and then the picture will become clearer.

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski Please let us know when the article is available, and where! Thanks. Shabat Shalom.

Private User

I corresponded with Naftali Wakstein yesterday, and the article has not been written yet.
..
I know that he conducts a great deal of research in branches that have not been researched yet (or have been little researched)....

For example, how the Krol family is a descendant of both the son of the Maharal of Prage, and of Rabbi Shaul Whal Katzenlenbogen (from whom the family name is derived: Krol= crown)...

In order for the research to be accurate, he employs researchers in Poland who check every information, so it will take time....I will wait patiently (even though I am very excited).

Eli Rubin
.I saw on the academy's website that Wakstein conducted a study on the Rubin family a long time ago...if you are not aware of the study, you should look it