Thomas Bruce, 1st Baron Clackmannan - Issue's

I've uploaded it to the project

:-)
Philip, you need to link each of the charters you're interested in to the cut and paste link of the profile involved, and then point out what changes you think it demonstrates that are different to the tree created by the other charters we have so far. At a first glance, I'm seeing them confirm each other.

Philip, you know you need to provide sourced proof for each change you want made. It's hard work, but that is genealogy.

You would not appreciate us allowing somebody else to make it look as they wanted it to and remove other manager's profiles without primary proof.

A large part of the Clackmannan tree is built on sources you sent us to from the Charters of Clackmannan. If these charters are incorrect, we need to have a research discussion about each one, individually.

Is THIS what you're wanting to show, Philip?

The genealogy researchers have found the marker in male line descendants of the Bruces of Clackmannan, who were related to [[Robert I the Bruce, King of Scots Robert I the Bruce, King of Scots] Robert the Bruce, King of Scots] from 1306 to 1329.

It is in the Y chromosome DNA of two different lines of descent from [[Sir Robert Bruce, 2nd Baron Clackmannan & Rate; proprietor of lands of Kennet Sir Robert Bruce, 2nd Baron Clackmannan & Rate; proprietor of lands of Kennet] Robert Bruce, 2nd Baron of Clackmannan], who lived in the second half of the 14th century.

One of the descendants who has taken a test is Rollo Bruce, a retired textile research editor from Oxfordshire.

Although there are varying theories about the exact relationship between the Bruces of Clackmannan and King Robert the Bruce, there is a consensus that it was very close. In the Register of the Great Seal for 1365, a charter of [[David II, king of Scots David II, king of Scots] King David II] confirms a grant of lands in Clackmannan to [[Sir Robert Bruce, 2nd Baron Clackmannan & Rate; proprietor of lands of Kennet Sir Robert Bruce, 2nd Baron Clackmannan & Rate; proprietor of lands of Kennet] Robert Bruce], who is described in Latin as “dilecto et fideli nostro consanguineo” (our beloved and faithful kinsman). This Robert is first mentioned in 1360 as the young heir of his father, [[Thomas Bruce, 1st Baron of Clackmannan Thomas Bruce, 1st Baron of Clackmannan] Thomas Bruce].

The genetic marker has been given the name FTB15831.

Graham Holton is Principal Tutor on Strathclyde’s Genealogical Studies Postgraduate Programme, based in the University’s Centre for Lifelong Learning. He said: “Y chromosome DNA tests taken by male line descendants of two of Robert of Clackmannan’s sons, [[Sir Robert Bruce, 3rd Baron of Clackmannan Sir Robert Bruce, 3rd Baron of Clackmannan] Robert] and Edward, show that they both carry the marker FTB15831. This means it may also have been carried by their close relative, King Robert.

“This discovery means that anyone living today who tests positive for the marker is descended from the same family as the famous King.

“Although the test takers from both lines carry FTB15831, one of them also has an additional genetic marker, indicating his descent from [[Sir Robert Bruce, 3rd Baron of Clackmannan Sir Robert Bruce, 3rd Baron of Clackmannan] Robert Bruce, 3rd Baron of Clackmannan], who died around 1405. Further research may reveal more markers for specific branches of the Bruce family. https://www.strath.ac.uk/whystrathclyde/news/2022/geneticmarkerdisc...

So you want to find a missing Edward son of Sir Robert Bruce, 2nd Baron Clackmannan & Rate; proprietor of lands of Kennet

and see what link can be found in the sources to show the kinship between Sir Robert Bruce, 2nd Baron Clackmannan & Rate; proprietor of lands of Kennet and Robert I the Bruce, King of Scots

Am I guessing correctly here?

Right now the connection is through the Stewarts:
Robert I the Bruce, King of Scots is Robert Bruce, 2nd Baron Clackmannan & Rate; proprietor of lands of Kennet's wife's second cousin twice removed:

Robert Bruce, 2nd Baron Clackmannan & Rate; proprietor of lands of Kennet
→ Isobell Stewart
his wife → Sir Robert Stewart, of Shambothy & Innermeath
her father → Sir James Stewart, of Pierston
his father → John Stewart of Bonkyl and Garlies
his father → Alexander Stewart, 4th High Steward of Scotland
his father → Margaret Stewart, Countess of Carrick
his sister → Marjorie, Countess of Carrick
her daughter → Robert I the Bruce, King of Scots
her son

By admission of that research article, the paper trail link between Robert of Clackmannan & Robert the Bruce is yet to be found by historians. Which is not the same as saying it doesn't exist - given the surname, it seems quite likely.

Philip, I've done nothing to numbering that was there before, because you haven't specified why each profile is wrong on a Discussion with primary proof for the profile managers. If I changed other managers'/curators' profiles everytime a user told me to do it, without showing the research, I'd be doing it 4 times a year.

RE need to know if this is correct according to the charters?

So do I.
You need to make the effort of engaging with the profile's research / or absence of it - and offering your sources as better. Until you do that, I have no authority on a collaborative tree to change info just because another user tells me to.

I have said this to you already - as well as the fact that the anachronistic numbering used to help historians is a small issue to fix once you've got the profiles sourced and in place. It's not reluctance on my part; it's your unwillingness to engage in researched debate on each of the profiles where you disagree. It may be that you can't because you don't have the primary proof yet, but I am jumping through hoops to try and get it for you to use, and I'm not the one wanting it done.

RE Would also like to know if we are on the same page in that there are two separate families? The family of Broase and the family of Stewart are DF27 and they are part of the Dol

I'm not positive what you mean here? Certainly the descendants of Isobel Stewart will carry as much of her DNA as of their father,Robert - so for DNA purposes, their descendants are not two families, after their offspring.

The Bruce Y chromosone will be distinct from the Stewart one if we assume no 'non-parental events', and shared by all the Bruce men if they have the same common Bruce ancestor.

I'm assuming the DNA article is working towards proving that the Clackmannan Robert Bruce is a gateway to finding the king's Y chromosone, because they assume that the surname pattern follows the Y chromosone and Clackmannan Bruce is a genetic cousin, and not just a cousin through his wife, of King Robert. But crucially - at the time of that above article - and I assume until a paper trail descendent of King Robert matches the Clackmannan Robert Bruce descendant - they cannot prove that the charter meant genetic cousin, and not just cousin by marriage. (The latter seems the less likely, given the surname, I agree - although surnames were not only passed to biological descendants in those days)

RE So DF27 is a known Stewart snp, lets take a look at Clan Dol and the Broase's are DF27

I don't know what significance you need me to understand by this. Can you explain in more detail? Perhaps I'm being dense.

i/ can download this; https://www.academia.edu/72458195/ROLLO_From_danish_Flanders_to_Nor..., but it comes without page numbers. What does it say ?

I don't think you're being confrontational, Philip - I'm just explaining to you what you need to do to get a curator to change a another manager's profile. You need to make an individually provable argument that specifies which profiles (provide links to them) are wrong, and why changing them is justified by better proof.

Well an SNP is not a whole DNA but a single mutation, as I understand it. And I could be wrong.

Is this one carried on the Ychromosone? If not, then it would be highly likely that the Bruce children descended from Isobel Stewart would have it too. Am I understanding correctly?

The question is what you want to say about it?

Why is the Yngling Dynasty important, Philip? Help me to understand.

PS I'm dozing off here. If I go quiet, it will be involuntary, not deliberate - and I'll come back tomorrow.