Thomas Bruce, 1st Baron Clackmannan - Issue's

Started by Private User on Sunday, December 27, 2020
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Scott, I'm not following your point about Wester Kennet being separate. I think, by definition, Wester would indicate a separation from the rest of Kennet. I've been trying to figure out if Easter Kennet was originally simply part of the Clackmannan Lands, and Wester was broken off first, or if Easter Kennet appears elsewhere in Charters of this time as well.

PS Cheers to your Valentines birthday.

Sharon thank you for all your hard work, I really appreciate you.

We need to work off these charters to understand how the genealogy of the Bruce's run.

INDEX, year 1629
Records of Charters, granted by the different sovereigns of Scotland, between the years 1309 and 1413
THE ANCIENT RECORDS OF SCOTLAND
which were in the Kingdom in the year 1292.
Author: William Robertson, Esq
Source: http://archive.org/download/indexdrawnupabou00grea.pdf

Sharon, thank for the birthday wishes! I will look it up in the morning, a couple of wee whiskies have made the night!

Will discuss these charters in a second, first these are the Blair writes and will help in understanding.

The Blair Writes. Page 370
DUNDAS, OF BLAIR CASTLE.

ROBERT BRUCE *, the Laird of Clackmannan brother. This Robert Bruce, the Learned Crawford designs, in his notes of Buchanan's History, page 94, "of Airth ".
It is, moreover mentioned that when the storm at Court blew over, which had overwhelmed the Lord Livingston and so many of his friends, the survivors had their attainder removed; and their forfeiture reversed; and the heirs of such as had been executed, had there estates restored. Among others, ROBERT BRUCE, son and heir of Robert, of Airth, Obtained restitution.
ROBERT BRUCE, Who was living temp. James II. Descended from Sir Edward Bruce, acquired the estate of Airth.

On the tomb in Latin: Ex Roberti Brussii Scotarum Regis Filio secando progenito, Baron of Airthensi.
On the tomb appears this English inscription:-
Heer lyes a branch of Brusse"s noble stemn, Airths Baron, who's high worth did sote that name. Hollande his courage honoured, Spain did feare, The Sweeds in Fonen brought the trial deare. At last his Prince's service called him home, to die on the Thame's bank, and leave this tombe, to bear his name into posteritie. And make all brave men love his memorie.
• Crawford states in his notes, that Robert Bruce, of Airth, was the Laird of Clackmannan brother, but the family of Airth never considered themselves a cadet of the Bruce's of Clackmannan, nor have the family of Clackmannan any charter older than those of Airth to prove so. Perhaps it maybe worth mentioning that the Bruce's of Clackmannan got a charter of their lands from King David Bruce. Now the Bruce's of Airth lived at Airth at the time of King Robert Bruce, before David Bruce existed; which proves that the Bruce's of Clackmannan must be either of a different family, or a cadet of the house of Airth. The Bruce of Airth bore for supporters two naked savages.

You need to explain what the Blair Writes are; when they were published; by whom etc - and specifically what you want to use them to show:
"two naked savages?

The Blair Writes, Dundas, of Blair Castle.
Page: 370

• A Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Commoners of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol.11
Source: http//archive.org/details/genealogicalhral02burk/mode/1up.
Sir Bernard Burke, C.B., LL.D.
Date: 1814-1892

This document is important as it explains the origins of the Bruce family in Airth and Clackmannan , goes on to explain the difficulties faced by Imposters and we get the Learned Crawford himself giving the history.

Ahh Burke's Peerage? Not well known for his scrupulous accuracy, but if he cites his sources - we are our way to finding docs you can use.

Oh hang on - Sir Bernard? Not John Burke? I read too fast...
I'm trying to do a search

http//archive.org/details/genealogicalhral02burk/mode/1up - takes me nowhere, unfortunately

Here are the lost charters of Robert the Bruce.
Davd II's Charters and Letters.
Source: https://cotr.ac.uk/robert-charters/david-iis-charters-and-letters/

The community of the realm

Davd II'S Carter's and Letters.

• Charter 1/54/62. Lindores. 06-Jan 1343. Robert Bruce, brother, to Robert Menzies
• Charter 1/54/582. Perth. 09-Dec-1368. Clackmannan
• Charter 1/54/589. Reskenneth. 17-Jun-1369. Rait

Would seem the numbering is correct according to the Charter's Sharon ;)

Blair Writes: A genealogical and Heraldic History of the Commoners of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol.11
Source: https://archive.org/details/genealogicalheral02burk/mode/1up.
A genealogical and Heraldic History of the colonial gentry (in two volumes)
Author: Butke, Bernard, Sir, 1814-1892
Sir Bernard Burke, C.B.,L.D.

Ahh that opens straight away. Thanks. I'll habe to take a look later in the week.

Getting there )

Robert 1's Charters: documents and itinerary

This Charter is so Important, will have to type it.
1/53/524
RMS, i, App.1, no.53
Roll VII; Index, no. 283
= Index, no. 355 (Roll VII)
4 Aug. 1320 x 7 June 1329
(conviction and forfeiture of William Soulis x Death of King Robert)

Robert, King of Scots, has [given, granted and ?] confirmed his beloved son Robert Bruce, for his homage and service, all his land of Liddersdale, which belonged to William Soulis Knight, and which William forfeited; in Free barony. and in free Forest, with the homages and service of Freeholders, advowson of the churches, multure of the mill, for service owed and wont and suit at sheriffdom court of Roxburgh at a single pleas.

The numbering of Clackmannan line.
So we have Robert King of Scots 1st of Clackmannan 2. David II 2nd of Clackmannan
3. Robert Bruce 3rd of Clackmannan

According to the Charters this is the Clackmannan numbering.

post a link to the page please

That opens on a generic page - which do I download to see it, Philip?

1/53/524
RMS, i, App, 1, no. 53
= Index, no. 355 (Roll VII)

Calendar of the Robert 1 rolls charters not mentioned in Duncan, RRS, V.

THE ANCIENT RECORDS OF SCOTLAND
Date: 1292
Author: William Robertson, Esq
Source: INDEX OF CHARTER, &c. BY KING ROBERT 1.
Page: 15/12
Ane Roll of Robert the First, markit with this mark on the back, R.I.F. reign 16.

2. Carta to Robert Bruce, Son to the King, the Lands of Liddersdale, whilk William Soulis forisfecit erga nos (Roxburgh)

3. Carta to Robert Bruce, filio nostro dilecto, the land of Alexander Abernethy

54. Carta to Robert Bruce of the land of Liddersdale

62. Carta to Robert Bruce, son to the King, of the barony of Sprowstoun

• No.2 We have Robert Bruce, son of King Robert 1 getting a Charter for Liddersdale.
• No.3 we have another Robert Bruce, Filio nostro dilecto, not mentioned as son ( I believe this Robert to be the son of Sir John Bruce of Connington, descendant of Bernard Bruce of Connington, son of Sir Robert Bruce 5th of Annandale.
• No. 54. We have another charter of Liddersdale to Robert Bruce, not mentioned as son of the King Robert 1, this Robert Bruce dies I believe 1332 in battle.
• No. 62. We have Carta to Robert Bruce, son to the King, of the Barony of Sprowstoun and this Robert Bruce I believe dies 1369.

The Blair Writes : A Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Commoners of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol.11
Author: Sir Bernard Burke, C.B.,L.D.
Date: 1814-1892
Source: htt://archive.org/details/genealogical heral02burk/mode/1up

Would like to discuss the numbering of the Clackmannan line. So we now know the correct numbering according to the charters.
1. Robert 1, 1st of Clackmannan
2. David II, snd

2. David II, 2nd of Clackmannan
3. Sir Robert Bruce, 3rd of Clackmannan
Would also like to pount out that Robert 1 is also 1st of Airth and Sir Robert Bruce the Kings son is 2nd of Airth.
The document starts off stating Sir Robert Bruce of Airth being the brother of David II Laird of Clackmannan, this would be in accordance with the Charters.
And to the next two generation's, Robert Bruce who was living temp. James II. descended from Sir Edward Bruce, acquired the estate of Airth as they explain the storm in court, the Bruce's/Broases of Wester Kennet married into the Livingston Family.
4. Sir Edward "Thomas" Bruce, 4th of Clackmannan (that he changed his name to Thomas has caused confusion, he changed his name to Thomas as he didn't like the name Edward, he definitely could not have been 1st of Clackmannan!) and up to this point it would appear that Airth and Clackmannan where joined.
5. Robert Bruce, 5th of Clackmannan. According to the script.

https://archive.org/detail/genealogicalheral02burk/mode/1up = "page not found"

https://wellcomecollection.org/works/kk6apwad = generic search engine - but THE ANCIENT RECORDS OF SCOTLAND etc produces nothing if you search for it. 

please link to specific pages, or download and upload to the profiles concerned - then call me there

https://wellcomecollection.org/works/kk6apwad/items?canvas=1

Sharon here's the link to the "Ancient Records of Scotland" text. You would only need to scroll down on the above link provide by Mr. Bruce and click on it, then enter "Carta to Robert Bruce" or whatever you like in the search bar next to the text.

(That's a great online source, imho. I didn't see this yesterday, as the/my internet was misbehaving quite badly then.)

Thanks Debra

Debra, you're a star. I'll try that tomorrow :-)

Always happy to help, :)

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