Hi Philip. Please don't edit without starting a Discussion from each profile, listing the primary sources that dispute its present position on Geni. (Find A Grave by itself is not a primary source)
If you want it permanently changed, that the only way to do it.

Getting those Charters is an excellent idea. That way we can lock in the changes.

Private User says

Would like to discuss charter No. 24

1490 Instrument of Sesine in favour of David Bruce as heir to David Bruce of Wester Kennet ( This Wester Kennet is incorrect as they are discussing the Easter Kennet lineage!, the descendants are designed as being from Easter Kennet).
David Bruce 1st died between 1480-1490 as was succeeded by his son David Bruce 2nd of Kennet.
David Bruce 1st had two Wives.
1. Agnes Redbeugh
2 Margaret Harris (this we know to be incorrect)

No. 25. 17th May 1495- Inquest in virtue of precept from King James IV, holden at Kennet. Land issue against Gilbert Brady by Agnes Redbeugh. Went in favour of Agnes Redbeugh because she and her husband David Bruce had owned the land for 50 years.
Page: 7

So according to this charter No. 25. David Bruce 1st (6th Baron of Clackmannan), 1495, could not have been born 1445 and therefore the David Bruce currently being run on our line is factually incorrect.

COLLECTIONS TOWARDS A HISTORY OF THE COUNTY OF CLACKMANNAN. .—parish of clackmannan. https://electricscotland.com/council/clacks.pdf

From Nos. 6 to 16, the history of the two families at Clackmannan and Kennet may be
easily seen:

• In 1359, Robert Bruce, a cousin of King David, obtains a gift of the castle and Barony of Clackmannan.
• In 1589, he gives Kennet, which is a part of that barony, to his son, Thomas
• and, in 1393, King Robert III. confirms this gift, and with the consent of Robert Bruce, the father, settles Clackmannan on David Bruce, the eldest son, and Kennet on Thomas Bruce, the second son.
• David is succeeded by his son, John, sometime before 1423,
• while Thomas of Kennet is succeeded by his son, Peter, in or before 1423,
• and he again is succeeded by his grandson, David Bruce, in or before 1447.

cf

• In 1359, Sir Robert Bruce, 3rd Baron of Clackmannan a cousin of King David, obtains a gift of the castle and Barony of Clackmannan.
• In 1589, he gives (Wester) Kennet, which is a part of that barony, to his son, Thomas Bruce, 1st of Wester Kennet, Pitfoulden and Cruicket.
• and, in 1393, King Robert III. confirms this gift, and with the consent of Robert Bruce, the father, settles Clackmannan on Sir David Bruce, 4th Baron of Clackmannan the eldest son, and Kennet on Thomas Bruce, the second son.
• David is succeeded by his son, Sir John Bruce, 5th Baron of Clackmannan & Rait sometime before 1423,
• while Thomas of Kennet is succeeded by his son, Peter Bruce, of Kennet in or before 1423,
• and he again is succeeded by his grandson, David Bruce, of Wester Kennet (snr) in or before 1447.

BRUCE, EARLS OF ELGIN AND AILESBURY Balfour Paul, James, ed. (1906). The Scots Peerage, Vol. III. Edinburgh: David Douglas. pp. 467–468. ISBN 0-9711966-2-1.

[[Thomas Bruce, 1st Baron of Clackmannan Thomas Bruce, 1st Baron of Clackmannan] Thomas de Bruys] is the first of this family that can be distinctly proved to have been in possession of Clackmannan. He died before 1348, in which year the lands of Clackmannan were in possession of [[Marjorie Charteris Marjorie Charteris] Marjorie Charteris], his widow, she having a third, the remainder being in the possession of his son and heir [[Sir Robert Bruce, 2nd Baron Clackmannan & Rate; proprietor of lands of Kennet Sir Robert Bruce, 2nd Baron Clackmannan & Rate; proprietor of lands of Kennet] Robert de Bruys], during whose minority Sir Robert Erskine and John Menteith had a grant of his ward. The exchequer account audited March 1359-60, but extending over the whole period from Easter 1348, shows that in 1359-60 Thomas had been dead at least eleven years, that his widow was then alive, and his son and heir Robert was under age. It seems probable that Thomas de Bruys, one of the associates of Robert the Steward, Guardian of the realm, whom he joined with the gentry of Kyle, and whose important services in organising an armed resistance to the English in 1334, are adverted to by Fordun and others, was identical with this Thomas of Clackmannan. Such services as his could hardly have failed of recognition by the Crown, and the accounts already referred to show that he had at one time, not defined, been in possession of a large portion of the Crown lands in the county of Clackmannan.

By Marjorie Charteris he had issue a son and heir, [[Sir Robert Bruce, 2nd Baron Clackmannan & Rate; proprietor of lands of Kennet Sir Robert Bruce, 2nd Baron Clackmannan & Rate; proprietor of lands of Kennet] Sir Robert de Bruys], who succeeded him. He must have been born ante 1348, and was still a minor under the guardianship of Sir Robert Erskine and John of Menteith in 1359-60. In pursuance of the revocation5 of all grants of Crown lands resolved on by Parliament in 1357, the Sheriff reported that he had assumed possession of these lands on behalf of the King, but a large proportion of the lands in question, Clackmannan included, were regranted by King David to Robert de Bruys, who had on 9 Decernber 1359' a Crown charter, dated at Perth, of the lands and barony of Clackmannan and others, in which he is styled ' dilectus consanguineus noster.' He had also a Crown charter of the lands of Kennet 20 October 1365, and on 17 January 1369-70 lhe had a Crown charter of the lands of Rait in Perthshire ; in these charters also he is termed ' con- sanguineus.' He died before or about 1389, as his son had then succeeded to Clackmannan, having married [[Isobell Stewart Isobell Stewart] Isabel], daughter of Sir Robert Stewart of Durisdeer and Innermeath [some say of Rosyth], and sister of Sir Robert Stewart, who fell at Shrewsbury, and by her had issue two sons, viz. : —
1. [[Sir Robert Bruce, 3rd Baron of Clackmannan Sir Robert Bruce, 3rd Baron of Clackmannan] Sir Robert], who succeeded.
2. [[James Bruce, Chancellor of the Kingdom James Bruce, Chancellor of the Kingdom] James], was rector of Kilmany in Fife, and consecrated Bishop of Dunkeld in the Abbey of Dunfermline, 4 February 1441-42. On 30 March 1444, as one of the mandatories of the Pope, he confirmed an agreement between the Abbot of Dunfermline and the burgh of Perth. In this year he was made Chancellor of the Kingdom, and was styled 'con- sanguineus ' by King James II. in a royal charter 1444. On the death of Bishop Cameron of Glasgow he was translated to that see, but died in 1447 before his consecration.

[[Sir Robert Bruce, 3rd Baron of Clackmannan Sir Robert Bruce, 3rd Baron of Clackmannan] Sir Robert de Brus], the elder son, succeeded his father ante 1389, as in that year he gave a charter to his natural son Thomas of the lands of Wester Kennet, which charter was confirmed by Robert in 1399. Sir Robert had upon his own resignation a charter " from Robert III of the lands of Rait in Perthshire to himself, in liferent, and to David, his eldest lawful son, and the heirs-male of his body in fee, whom failing, to his own nearest heirs whatsoever, date Linlithgow 12 August 1393. He had also a charter ' from the same King of the lands of Clackmannan, etc., to himself, in liferent, and to David his lawful son, and the heirs-male of his body, in fee, whom failing, to his son Thomas, and his heirs-male, whom failing, to return to the King, dated 24 October 1394. In both these charters he is styled ' consanguineus,' and his son David is so termed in the last. Sir Robert died before 1406. His wife is said to have been a [[Annabelle Scrymgeour Annabelle Scrymgeour] daughter of Scrimgeour] of Dudhope, Constable of Dundee, but there is no proof of this. He had issue : —
1 . David, who succeeded.
2. Alexander of Stanehous and Airth, who in an original birthbrief from Charles I., dated 23 July 1633, to Adam Bruce, ancestor of the Comtes de Bruce in France, is styled ' legitimate son of Sir Robert Bruce of Clackmannan, Knight.' It is evident from the charter of 1394 to his father, Sir Robert Bruce of Clackmannan, that at that date Alexander was not born, as the remainder was, after David his lawful son, to Thomas his [natural] son, there being no mention of Alexander. Alexander was the founder of the baronial house of Bruce of Airth, and was ancestor of the following cadet branches, viz. Earlshall, Kinnaird, Auchenbowie, Powfoullis, Leth- bertshiells, Waltoun, Comtes de Bruce in France, Kincavel, Bangour, Stenhouse, Newtoun, Benburb, and Downhill.

[[Sir David Bruce, 4th Baron of Clackmannan Sir David Bruce, 4th Baron of Clackmannan] Sir David Bruce], the elder son, succeeded his father about 1406. As David Bruce dominus de Clacmanan, miles, he made a renunciation of the tithes of the mills of Clack- mannan, on 6 October 1406, to the canons regular of Oambuskenneth.3 He married Jean, daughter of Sir John Stewart of Innermeath and Lorn, and by her had issue three sons, viz. : —
1. John, succeeded in Clackmannan.
2. Patrick had a charter from Alan de Kynnarde of the lands of Hill, 8 July 1449, confirmed 16 May 1450.
3. James, mentioned 1449.

[[Sir John Bruce, 5th Baron of Clackmannan & Rait Sir John Bruce, 5th Baron of Clackmannan & Rait] John Bruce], the eldest son, succeeded his father, before 23 May 1422, when he appears as a witness 3 to a notarial instrument executed at Dunfermline ; on 28 March 1428/ he ratified and confirmed the charter of 2 May 1389 granted by his grandfather Robert De Bruys to his son Thomas de Bruys of the lands of Wester Kennet, and on 24 September 1428 he gave sasine to Peter de Bruys of these lands to which he had acquired right as heir to his father. He resigned his estates of Clackmannan and Rait in favour of David Bruis, his son and heir, reserving his own liferent and a reasonable terce to [[Elizabeth Stewart of Rossyth Elizabeth Stewart of Rossyth] Elizabeth Stewart], his wife, during her life- time, at Edinburgh, 26 March 1473, in which year he died, having married Elizabeth, daughter of Sir David Stewart of Rosyth, by whom he had issue two sons, viz. : —
1. Sir David, who succeeded.
2. Robert, ancestor of the Bruces of Cultmalundie in Perthshire, and of Muness in Zetland.

[[Sir David Bruce, 6th Baron of Clackmannan & Rate Sir David Bruce, 6th Baron of Clackmannan & Rate] Sir David Bruce], the elder son, succeeded his father in Clackmannan. He had a charter as above from King James in., proceeding upon his father's resignation of the lands of Clackmannan and Rait, etc. He was knighted by James IV., with whom he was in great favour. On 28 August 1481 he settled the estate of Rait in Perthshire on Robert Bruce, his eldest son and apparent heir, and Elizabeth Lindsay, his wife. This charter was confirmed by James IV 15 December 1488. He married, first, [[Janet Stirling, of Keir Janet Stirling, of Keir] Janet], daughter of Sir William Stirling of Keir, by whom he had one son : —
1. Robert Bruce of Rait. For some unknown reason (probably the influence of his step-mother) he was passed over by his father in the succession to Clack- mannan, in favour of his half-brother David. Robert of Rait died vita patris before 1490,when his widow ' was wife of Alexander Scott, son of William Scott of Balwery, and in a charter from his father Sir David to the monastery of Scone, 29 November 1490, he is mentioned as 'quondam.' This charter was confirmed 2 7 May 1491. He married, about 1484, Elizabeth Lindsay, and by her had issue two sons, viz. : —

(1) David, succeeded in Rait.
(2) Alexander,3 tutor to James, his brother's son, in 1522. This family of Rait and Fingask has been traced down to 1679 ; the estate of Fingask was sold in 1672 4 to the Threipland family. It is by no means certain that there are no male descendants of this branch ; if so, the eldest of them would undoubtedly be head of the whole family of Bruce.

Sir David married, secondly, [[Mariot "Marion" Herries Mariot "Marion" Herries] Mariota], daughter of John Herries of Terregles, and widow of Sir David Stewart of Rosyth. In a Grown charter of his estate of Clackmannan in favour of his son David, a life-rent is reserved to himself and Dame Mariota Herries, his spouse, of date 11 September 1497. He died about 1500, leaving issue by his second wife two sons and two daughters, viz. : —
2. Sir David, succeeded in Clackmannan.
3. Alexander, witnessed the charter of 29 November 1490 mentioned above.
4. Margaret, mentioned in a deed, 1477.
5. Christian, married to Sir James Shaw of Sauchie.
Sir David is said to have had two more sons by his second wife, ancestors respectively of the Bruces of Ham and Standstill, Caithness.

[[Sir David Bruce, 7th Baron Of Clackmannan Sir David Bruce, 7th Baron Of Clackmannan] Sir David Bruce], eldest son of the second marriage, succeeded his father in Clackmannan, to the exclusion of his elder half-brother [[Robert Bruce, of Rait Robert Bruce, of Rait] Robert] and his son [[David Bruce of Rait David Bruce of Rait] David]. On 11 September 1497 he had a Crown charter of Clackmannan, subject to his father's liferent and that of his mother Mariota Herries. On 3 February 1506-7 he had a Crown charter erecting Clackmannan, with other lands, into a barony, when he is styled ' David Bruis de Clackmannan miles, Alius quondam David Bruce de Clackmannan,' his nephew, David Bruce of Rait, having resigned any interest he might have in it. The estate must have been a very large one, from the enumeration of the lands incorporated in the barony. He had a licence to hold a fair at Clack- mannan on the Feast of St. Bartholomew annually, 18 April 1517, which was confirmed 18 September 1542. Sir David was on an assize 1 December 1554, On 21 January 1550-51 he gave a charter to Robert Bruce, his grandson and apparent heir, and Janet Levingstone, his wife, of an annualrent of forty merks, and was alive 12 June 1556, when he gave a precept of sasine for infefting Robert Bruce, brother- german of the deceased Mr. John Bruce, in the lands of Wester Kennet. Sir David married [[Lady Janet Blackadder, Baroness of O'Lack Lady Janet Blackadder, Baroness of O'Lack] Jean], daughter of Sir Patrick Blacadder of Tulliallan, by whom he had issue five sons and four daughters, viz. : —
1.John, died vita patris before 14 February 1550-51, but carried on the line of the Clackmannan family, which became extinct in the male line on the death, 8 July 1772, of Henry Bruce, fifteenth and last Baron.
2. Edward, of Blairhall born 1505, had a charter of the lands of Easter Kennet, 1537, on the resignation of Robert Brady. This charter was confirmed11 by James v. 24 April 1537. He had also a charter 12 from the Abbot of Culross 7 June 1540, confirmed 15 February 1542-43, of the lands of Bergady and two parts of the Shire mills
3. David, of Green. He was ancestor of the Bruces of Kennet, Lords Balfour of Burleigh. (See vol. i. p. 547.)
4. Robert, of Lynmylne. The Swedish Bruces ennobled in 1668 were probably descended from him.
5. Patrick, of Valleyfield. He had a charter of Valley-field from the Commendator of Culross, 8 June 1540, to himself and Margaret Falconer, his wife, which was confirmed7 15 February 1542-43. In this confirmation charter he is called son of Sir David Bruce of Clackmannan, Knight. He is said to have resigned the lands and barony of Valleyfield to James Preston of Craigmillar, and to have died s. p., leaving the estate of Green to his brother David ; but, on the other hand, David appears as a witness to a charter under the designation 'of ' de Greyne,' 30 January 1536-37. He is also a witness to a precept of sasine 6 November 1536, and in an ancient MS. pedigree, endorsed 1640, Patrick is styled of Valleyfield,' and David is called ' of Greyne.' It would, on the whole, seem that Patrick never possessed Green, but only Valleyfield.
6. Elizabeth, married, first, to Alexander Dundas of Fingask ; they had a charter of Cottis, 8 August 1542. She was married, secondly, to Robert Oolless of Bonneymoon.
7. Marion, married, first, about 1500, to John Menteith of Caverkay ; secondly, to Robert Bruce of Airth ; and thirdly, to Magnus Sinclair of Kynninmonth, second son 7 of William, Lord Sinclair. She died July 1575; will dated at Dysart 18 June 1575, confirmed 11 August 1575.8
8. Agnes, married to John Elphinstone, parson of Invernochty, with issue.
9. Alison, married to Sir James Oolville of Ochiltree, circa 1530. They had a charter of East Wemyss 20 August 1533.

If you ignore the extra generation of Roberts that Balfour Paul adds in early on, the rest lines up pretty accurately with the Charters

RE:1490 Instrument of Sesine in favour of David Bruce as heir to David Bruce of Wester Kennet ( This Wester Kennet is incorrect as they are discussing the Easter Kennet lineage

It's definitely Wester Kennet:

• No. 9 2 May 1389 Thomas obtains Kennet from his father, 2 May 1389.— Charter of Robert de Bruys of Clackmannan and Rate to and in favour of Thomas de Bruys, his son, where- by " for good services" he grants the said Thomas the lands of Wester Kennet and others for payment to his said father of a silver penny yearly. In the history of Noble British Families, part 3, p. 15, it is stated that Robert de Bruce died about this period, and the next Charters of resignation were probably made by the possessor of the estate on succeeding thereto
• No. 12 18th February, 1399— Crown Charter of Resignation and Confirmation by King Robert III., ratifying and confirming the Charter No. 9, granted by Robert de Bruys to his son, Thomas, of the lands of Wester Kennet, Pitfoulden, and the Cruikitland, all lying in the county of Clackmannan. From this time the estate of Kennet continued separate from that of Clackmannan, and although the families continued on the most intimate terms, and the heiress of Kennet, in 1568, married one of the cadets of Clackmannan, the estates have never been united.

No. 14 24th Sept 1423 Instrument of Sasine in favour of Peter or Patrick de Bruys, in the lands of Wester Kennet, in the Barony of Graysmenstone and county of Clackmannan, proceeding on the precept contained in No. 13, to which Peter Bruys had acquired right as heir to his father, sasine given by John de Bruce, Lord of Clackmannan

No. 13 28th March, 1428— Charter of Confirmation of John Bruce of Rate and Clackmannan, ratifying and confirming the Charter No. 9, granted by his grandfather, Robert de Bruys, to his son Thomas de Bruys, of the lands of Wester Kennet, &c.

The date is obliterated, but it appears from other documents to have been prior to 1442.The Barony of Shanbody now forming part of the estate of Kennet, as will be afterwards seen, came to the Bruces by purchase.

No 16 22d Dec, 1447 — Discharged by John de Bruce of Clackmannan to his eldest cousin, David, the Bruce of the Kennet, of the sum of 50 merks money of Scotland, addebted to the said John the Bruce, by Peter the Bruce, grandfather of the above-mentioned David.

So, the Wester Kennet line goes Thomas > Peter>David

No. 21 23d July, 1460— Instrument bearing that David Bruce of Kennet, at the desire of David Bruce of Clackmannan, and James Schaw of Sauchie, cautioners for the said David Bruce of Kennet, to a discreet woman, Agnes Bonar, for the sum of 100 nierko, money of Scotland, given and delivered to the said Agnes by Arthur Cramond, her attorney and procurator, the sum of 4 merks,upon part payment of said sum, where- upon the said Arthur answered that if so it was that the said David Bruce at the day and place agreed upon between them was willing to deliver to him a further sum of 44 merks, and find security for the balance between and the feast of St Michel, the archangel, then next he should be fully satisfied thereof.

This David Bruce of Kennet is probably the one mentioned in No. 16.

No. 24 — 1490 — Instrument of Sasine in favour of David Bruce, as heir to David Bruce of Wester Kennet, his father, in the lands of Wester Kennet,

This document is mutilated so as in many places to be illegible, but enough remains to show that the David Bruce of Kennet mentioned in Nos. 16 and 21 died somewhere between 1480 and 1490, and was succeeded by his son David. A David Bruce of Kennet is mentioned in a Retoun_of William Stirling of Cadder, in 1481,— see also No. 25.

No. 25 — 17th May, 1495 Inquest in virtue of precept from King James IV., holden at Kennet by Sir William Monteith, Sheriff of Clackmannan, at the complaint of Agnes Redheugh, spouse of the deceased David Bruce of Kennet, against Gilbert Brady, for troubling her in the peaceable possession of a head-rig of land, the grass of a ward, the grass of a forebank at the Cruiketland, and others. Whereupon the said Inquest found her entitled to possess the same, as she and her said deceased husband had done for fifty years past.

The first time Easter Kennet comes up in relation to the Bruce Charters is below: [In 1534 and 1537 it belongs to John Brady and Robert Brady respectively]

Edward, of Blairhall born 1505, had a charter of the lands of Easter Kennet, 1537, on the resignation of Robert Brady. This charter was confirmed11 by James v. 24 April 1537. He had also a charter 12 from the Abbot of Culross 7 June 1540, confirmed 15 February 1542-43, of the lands of Bergady and two parts of the Shire mills. [Edward is the son of Sir David Bruce, eldest son of the second marriage, who succeeded his father in Clackmannan, to the exclusion of his elder half-brother Robert and his son David].

Agnes Redheugh is being troubled by the Bradys in Wester Kennet because shes the widow of David Bruce, of Wester Kennet (snr) great grandson of Thomas Bruce, 1st of Wester Kennet, Pitfoulden and Cruicket.

Sir David Bruce, 6th Baron of Clackmannan & Rate marries Janet Stirling, of Keir first and Mariot "Marion" Herries second, and never marries an Agnes.

I think the Charters and Balfour Paul bear this out.

Agnes Redheugh cannot be the widow of Sir David Bruce, 6th Baron of Clackmannan & Rate in 1495, because he's not dead then. He's creating Charters after that date: signing over his estate of Clackmannan in favour of his son David, a life-rent is reserved to himself and Dame Mariota Herries, his spouse, of date 11 September 1497.

Scott, this project should help with an explanation of primary sources: https://www.geni.com/projects/Working-with-sources/18201*

I have no vested interest in any outcome here, so am just spending hours and hours recording the info that we have that is as close to events as we can get. Balfour Paul isn't the be-all and end-all, but he's quite apparantly used the Charters to create what he has. It would be great if someone put in the Annandale Charters and any others that we have on the project: https://www.geni.com/projects/Bruce-in-the-Charters-of-Clackmannan/4475537. It isn't so helpful to do all the research work on my own, so I'd be delighted with help with the spade work.

Philip, the 1495 Charter is a record from the time, not hundreds of years after the fact. Am I missing something important?

I don't understand the death record question. Are you thinking that the "deceased" is an interpolation? Why would she be appealing for help if he was alive? Surely he would be the complainant then?

Let's start a Discussion from the Annabelle Scrymgeour profile about her name, or anonymity - it isn't my profile, and I'd be happy for it to conform to primary sources. Your point about Balfour Paul is well taken.

Scott, we use the closest documentation to the source that we have. You asked about what Source docs were. I replied. We're not in a competition about semantics, or any competition at all. I'm presuming we both want the same thing here6?

Philip, I think you put a link above. As I explained in my message, I spent 7 hrs yesterday getting on top of the Clackmannan Charters I'd written up last time, and adding Balfour Paul once I'd realised that he was tallying. Fun as I find this, I have a full time job, and this isn't a pace I can keep up on Geni, so I'd assumed you'd start putting them on the project for us, as we're researching this line because of your interest.