Sir David Bruce, 6th Baron of Clackmannan & Rate - wrong parents

Wester Kennet land ownership in the time of David Bruce, of Wester Kennet (jnr) 's sons:

No. 41.— 24th April, 1543 —Instrument of Sasine in favour of Robert, son of David Bruce of Kennet, in seven riggs of land on the south side of Kennet hill lying in country of Clackmannan, given propriis manibus of the said David Bruce, in terms of the Charter thereof. To be holden blench of the said David Bruce and his heirs, for payment of twopence, money af Scotland, at the feast of Pentecost, yearly. Witnesses : John Dow alias Henderson, John Heyk, James Hogg, and Mr John Bruce, notary.

This Robort Bruce afterwards succeeded to the whole estate of Kennet. (See No. 53.)

No. 42 2d May, 1547 — Precept by Queen Mary, addressed to the Sheriff of Clackmannan, at the instance of Mr John Bruce of Wester Kennet, bearing that he was heritably infeft in the lands of Wester Kennet, lying in the Sheriffdom of Clackmannan ; nevertheless, Margaret Kinninmouth, relict of David Bruce of Wester Kennet, withholds from him his houses, fortalices, and manor place, of the said lands, and will not leave the same to him, void and redd ; as also, withholds his evidents, namely, Charters, Precepts of Sasine, and others, of the lands of Craighill, Hiltoun, cropt of 12 riggs, 10 riggs, and 7 nggs, lying in the Kennet hill, and Sheriffdom fore- said. Therefore, charging the said Margaret Kinninmouth to deliver up the said lands, evidents, and others, and that within six months after she shall be warned thereto.

No. 43.— 25th May, 1547— Precept by Queen Mary, addressed to David Bruce of Clackmannan, knight, for infefting Patrick Bruce, son and heir of the deceased David Bruce of Wester Kennet, in the lands of Wester Kennet, Pitfulden, and Cruiketland, lying in the Barony and county of Clackmannan.

No. 45.— 7th May, 1548— Instrument of Sasine in favour of Patrick Bruce, in the lands of Wester Kennet, and others mentioned in the foregoing precept (No. 43), and proceeding thereon. Witnesses : John Bruce of Hillend, David Bruce of Green, John Brady, James Malcolm, John Ranny, Thomas Biggon, Simon Mortise, office of the said land of Clackmannan, Thomas and Henry Bruce, brothers of the said Patrick, and Herbert White alias Smith.

This Patrick Bruce seems to have died without issue, and there is no other mention of him after this date.

The Charters, &c., (No. 24, 30, 32, 34, 39, and 42,) show that David Bruce of Kennet who succeeded in 1490, continued to be proprietor till his death, between 1543 and 1547. No. 43 shows that his eldest son was Patrick. The claim made by John Bruce (see No. 42) cannot refer to the whole estate of Kennet, but merely to the portions specially mentioned, to which John Bruce acquired right by some arrangement with his father. The designation "Wester Kennet" shows him to have been one of the family of Bruce of Kennet, and it would rather appear from subsequent writs (see Nos. 50, 53, and 54,) that he was the next eldest son to Patrick, and afterwards succeeded to the whole estate of Kennet, and dying without issue, was succeeded by the next son, Robert. .

No. 45.— 7th May, 1548— Instrument of Sasine in favour of Patrick Bruce, in the lands of Wester Kennet, and others mentioned in the foregoing precept (No. 43), and proceeding thereon. Witnesses : John Bruce of Hillend, David Bruce of Green, John Brady, James Malcolm, John Ranny, Thomas Biggon, Simon Mortise, office of the said land of Clackmannan, Thomas and Henry Bruce, brothers of the said Patrick, and Herbert White alias Smith.

This Patrick Bruce seems to have died without issue, and there is no other mention of him after this date.

No. 49.— 10th September, 1551— Instrument of seisin in favour of Robert Bruce, brother-german of John Bruce of Wester Kennet, in a croft of land in the lands of Wester Kennet, called Byrecroft, lying in the Barony and county of Clackmannan — given propriis manibus- by the said John Bruce. Witnesses: David Bruce, Edward Riddoch, John Finlayson.

No. 50.— 7th March, 1552— Confirmation by John, Archbishop of St Andrews, of Margaret Kinninmont, the Lady of Wester Kennet, given up at Gartalie on the 3d of April, 1551, before Thomas Stuart of Gartalie, John Stuart, Ewan Mackindow, John Macniven, and Sir John Taltour, curator of the church of Gartalie, by which she had in the hands of Thomas Bruce, her son, £20: in the hands of Alexander Gaw of Maw, and the said Thomas, three years rents of the lands of Bothkennier, £904, &c. ; and in the hands of Robert Bruce, her son, £20 ; resting to Margaret Bruce, .£40; Robert Fleming of Mores, 40 merks ; James Bruce, 20 merks ; Henry Bruce, 10 merks ; Elizabeth Bruce, 32s ; and by which she bequeathed her soul to the omnipotent God, and the blessed Virgin Mary, and all Saints, and her body to be buried in the Parish Church of Gartalie ; 20 merks to Fleming of Mores ; and 41s to each of his lawful children ; .£40 to Margaret Bruce ; 10 merks to Henry Bruce ; and 10 merks to James Bruce ; and constitutes James Kinninmond, her brother, Robert Fleming of Mores, Sir David Christison, chaplain, and Alexander Gaw of Maw, her executors ; and Sir David Bruce of Clackmannan, knight ; and Henry Stuart of Rossyth ; to give up her testament. .

Nos. 50 and 51— Show that Patrick Bruce had died, that John Brace was now acting as laird of Wester Kennet, while his mother with whom he had a lawsuit referred to in No. 40, was now dead. It is not expressly stated that John was a brother of Patrick, but it is to be inferred, because Robert, who afterwards succeeded John as the next brother (No. 53) was the son of David Bruce and Margaret Kinninmouth, as Patrick also was.

No. 52.— 28th May, 1556— Precept of Seizin by David Bruce of Clackmannan, knight, directed to Patrick Bruce of Green and John Brady, for infefting Robert Bruce, brother-german of the deceased Mr John Bruce of Wester Kennet, in the lands of Wester Kennet, with their pertinents, lying in the Barony and county of Clackmannan, in terms of Precept from Chancery Witnesses : William Templeton, John Brydone, Walter Bruce, David Bruce, and Thomas Gardener.

No. 53.—12th June, 1556—Precept of Seisin,by David Bruce of Clackmannan, directed to Patrick Bruce of Green and John Brady, infeffcing Robt. Bruce, brother-german of the deceased Patrick, Mr John Bruce, in the lands of Wester Kennet, Pitfoulden, and Cruikitlands, lying in the Barony and county of Clackmannan. Witnesses : William Templeton, James Malcolm, Walter Bruce, Robert Harrower, Gilbert Blyth,Thomas Gardner in Clackmannan, Thomas Bruce, John Home, and William Primrose.

From the circumstances of two infeftments being necessary to complete Robert Bruce's title as heir to his brother John, it would seem that the estate had been divided, and that the claim made in No. 42 was founded on a grant made by David Bruce of part of the estate of Wester Kennet to his second son John. Now that John had died without issue, Robert, as heir to him, and Patrick acquired right to both parts of the estate, and they were now again united.

David Bruce, of Wester Kennet (jnr) x Margaret Kininmonth had sons Patrick Bruce, of Wester Kennet John Bruce, of Wester Kennet Robert Bruce, of Wester Kennet

Robert Bruce, of Wester Kennet 's heir, Margaret Bruce, heiress of Wester Kennet , marries David Bruce, of Green 's son, Archibald Bruce, liferenter of Wester Kennet

No. 55.—16th June, 1568—Contract of marriage between Robert Bruce of Kennet as taking burden for Margaret Bruce of Kennet, his daughter and apparent heir on the one part, and Archibald Bruce, son of the deceased David Bruce of Green, on the other part in contemplation of which the said Archibald Bruce obliges himself to infeft the said Margaret Bruce, his future spouse in liferent in the lands of WesterKennet, and in .the event of her surviving him in four houses on the south part of the principal place—viz., a cellar—three chambers above the same, and the entry to be at the tower door inthe close, and the garden on the west side of the place alternately, and in like manner the said Robert Bruce obliges himself to convey to them his lands, tenements and acres within the county and freedom of Clackmannan, under burden of his own liferent, and Elizabeth, his spouse's, and shall sustain the said Archibald and Margaret, together with a servant and nurse, when such occurs, during his (the said Robert) lifetime, and shall pay to the said Archibald £20 money of Scotland, £l 13s 4d sterling) yearly, to keep his purse and for the purpose of enabling the said Robert to redeem his said lands, the said Archibald to make payment to him of the sum of 2400 merks, money of Scotland at the terms therein mentioned.

This contract is somewhat decayed and insome places illegible. David Bruce of Green the father of Archibald, had succeeded to the property of Green on the death of his brother Patrick, mentioned in (Nos. 53 and 54.) The first " such that occurred" was a son, Robert,who afterwards succeeded to the estate of Kennet.

No. 56.—20th July, 1569—Letter of reversion by John Blackadder of Tulliallan, and Margaret Halkerstone, his spouse, to Robert Bruce of Wester Kennet, for redemption of the half lands of Wester Kennet, except an acre called the field land thereof, lying in the Sheriffdom of Clackmannan, wadset to them by said Robert Bruce, for to sums of 800 merks each, the place of redemption within the Parish kirk on a Sunday forenoon during the time of prayers, or at their dwelling-houses. Witnesses : John Couston, in Clackmannan ; William Blackadder, son of the said John Blackadder ; and James Gibson, his servant. Signed at Tulliallan the above date.

No. 57.— 19th September, 1569—Instrument of intimation by Archibald Bruce, son of the deceased David Bruce of the Green, and Margaret Bruce, his future spouse, daughter, and apparent heir of Robert Bruce of Wester Kennet, who compeared with a notary and witnesses at the place of Tulliallan, and made search for John Blackadder of Tulliallan, and Margaret Halkerstone, his spouse, but not finding them, made intimation to them to compear within Parish Kirk of Stirling, upon the 10th day of November, 1569, being Martinmas term, and receive the sum of 1600 merks, for redemption of the half lands of Wester Kennet, wadset to the said John Blackadder and spouse by the said Robert Bruce, for the said sum thereafter passed, to the place of Balgonie, the dwelling place of Robert Erskine, and in pre- sence of Christian Stirling, his mother, made intimation to them also as said is, and that in terms of assignation by the said Robert Bruce of letter of reversion, preceding to them.Witnesses : William Leslie, of Rothes ; JamesSpencer ; and David Bruce, brother of Eobert Bruce, Clackmannan. Taken at Tulliallan and Balgonie the above date.

Sir David Bruce of Clackmannan had by this time died, and been succeeded by his grandson, Robert, who was knighted in 1593 by King James VI., on
the baptism of Prince Henry.

Meanwhile: Easter Kennet

No. 37.— 23d April, 1537— Charter by Robert Bradic of Easter Kennet, to Mr Edward Bruce, ,and his heirs and assigns, of three ports as his (the said John Brady's) lands of Easter Kennet, lying in the county of Clackmannan, also his croft lying in the territory and liberty of the town of Clackmannan, on the west side of the church thereof, and situate between the lands of David Bruce of Clackmannan on the east and west. Item two parts of a tenement of land called Baxter's land, croft of land called the crooked croft, bounded by the High road on the east, and the land of the aforesaid David Bruce on the west. Also two parts of the said crooked croft, and bounded as said is annual rent of 40 pence money of Scotland, payable from the lands of John Arkle, lying in the town of Clackmannan ; annual rent of 10s payable from the lands of Gilbert Coulson, lying on the north side of the town of Clackmannan ; and annual rent of 20s payable from the lands of John Smith, lying as said is, and, that in consideration of a certain sum of money paid to him by the aforesaid David Bruce in his urgent necessity. To be holden the aforesaid lands and annual rents with the right of pasturage in the county of Clackmannan, used and wont by the said Edward Bruce, his heirs and assigns of and under the King, and his successors, in fee and heritage for services used and wont, and services to the courts of Clackmannan.

No. 38,— 24th April, 1539— Charter of Resignation and Confirmation by James V., verbatim ratifying Confirming the forgoing charter, No. 37.

No. 39 1540— Charter by the Abbot of Culross to Mr Edward Bruce of the lands of Bargandy and two parts of Shiremills.

This Edward Bruce is supposed to be second son of Sir David Bruce of Clackmannan, and afterwards Commendator of Kinloss. See No. 69.

No. 58.— 1570—Charter by Robert Brace of Clackmannan to Archibald Bruce, fiar of Wester Kennet, of a piece of land lying in the Pilmuier, in the Barony and county of Clack- mannan, and that in consideration of a certainsum of money.

No. 59.—21st May, 1575 — Instrument of Seisin in favour of Margaret Bruce, as heir toRobert Bruce of Wester Kennet, her father, in10 riggs in the Porlyn, 12 riggs on the north side of the Kennet hill, and 7 riggs on the south side of Kennet hill, in the lands of Kennet and county of Clackmannan, proceeding on Precept of Clare Coustat, and given propriis manibus by Robert Bruce of Easter Kennet. Witnesses : William Thomson, servant to Archibald Bruce, husband of the said Margaret ; Walter Bruce, and Patrick Bruce, rector of Tulliallan.

Probably the Robert Bruce of Easter Kennet here mentioned was the son and heir of the Edward Bruce who acquired three -parts of Easter Kennet by the Charter No. 37. From the terms of the Instrument it appears that Robert Bruce of Wester Kennet, the father of Margaret, is now dead. The date of his death is fixed by No. 66.

No. 60.—25th November, 1577—Charter by Adam Blackadder, son of Culthbert Blackadder, of Blairhall, to Robert Bruce of Easter Kennet, of an annual rent of 40 merks, secured on the lands of Blairhall and Possells. (Blackadder Charters, W.D.B.)

See monument at Culross to this Robert Bruce of Easter Kennet.

No. 64.—20th May, 1583.—Charter by Sir Robert Pont of the lands of Blairhall, in favour of Robert Bruce of Easter Kennet. ?Blackadder Charters, W.D.B.)

No. 66.—11th June, 1583—Testament Dative and Inventory of Robert Bruce of Wester Kennet, given up by Archibald Bruce, of Wester Kennet, his son-in-law, in name and on behalf of Robert Bruce, lawful oye (grandson), to the defunct and executor dative. Issued from the commissariat of Edinburgh of the above date.

In this writ Robert Bruce is said to have deceased on the 20th March, 1574, and from the way in which the executors proceeded to make up a title it appears that he left no will. Had there been a will, the writ would have been called Testament Testamentar. Patrick Blackadder, Andrew Gow, and Andrew Bruce are all mentioned in this writ.

No. 67.— 11th June, 1583—Testament and Inventory of Margaret Bruce, sometime spouse to Archibald Bruce of Wester Kennet, within the Sheriffdom of Clackmannan, in the month of September, 1579, given up by Archibald Bruce, her spouse, as father and lawful administrator to Robert Bruce, their lawful son.

In this testament small bequests are made to Janet Bruce and Thomas Bruce in Clackmannan, but what connections they were to the family does not appear. George Bruce in Culross, James Bruce, and Patrick Blackadder of Tulliallan are also mentioned. They were all closely connected with the family of Clackmannan. This George, afterwards Sir George Bruce of Culross, was the third son of Mr Edward Bruce of Blairhill, Easter Kennet, &c, and grandson of Sir David Bruce of Clackmannan. His monument is in the burial place at Culross. This writ also was issued from the Commissariat at Edinburgh of the above date. There is now no doubt that this Mr Edward Bruce was the son of Sir David Bruce of Clackmannan. The fact is proved by a Charter of Protection from King James V., dated 1533, off which the following is a copy :

Sir Edward Bruce of Blairhall and Easter Kennet passes to his son Robert Bruce, of Blairhall & Easter Kennet - Edward's brother Archibald marries Margaret, heiress of Wester Kennet, which passes to their son Robert Bruce of Wester Kennet

So, at this stage, Easter Kennet has reverted to the Barons of Clacks descent line, and Wester Kennet is now in descent from both the Clacks Barons and the original Thomas of Wester Kennet.
All share the grandfather Sir Robert Bruce, 2nd Baron Clackmannan & Rate; proprietor of lands of Kennet

Philip, if your intention is to prove that you descend directly from Robert I the Bruce, King of Scots if that is who your Robert the Bruce 1334 designates - you'd be better to have that Discussion about primary source documentation from his profile.

Philip, we've already had the rest of your discussions. You don't argue from primary evidence, and I've made my position on continuing to explain that there is no proof without them quite clear.

I'm referring to your royal lineage post, and letting you know this line doesn't appear to have the primary documentation at the top to get you there, so making claims lower down is fruitless.

Geni has a collective tree and a policy of using validified documentation to create it. If you want your personal tree to show connections that aren't backed by primary sources, you need to find a programme - like My Heritage - that will allow you to do that.

? All the sources are from the original Charters.

It's got nothing to do with the commentary. The Sources are there to disprove.

You have no sources.

As he's referred to as both, I settled on Wester Kennet as a better way to ensure he conforms with his line, and to distinguish him from the Easter Kennet line. This, however, is not actually what is causing Philip's confusion,

On the matter of the Charters: With 'fraud' as the objection and no primary sources being offered - it's impossible to resolve in the way Philip wants it to be and still do Geni's work.

I've now gone the extra mile and documented all the primary sources we have, and, at this point, I have nothing more to offer here, until other primary sources are offered that support Philip's objection - which, at the moment, appears to be based on subjective motives of who he does and doesn't want to be descended from.

Philip, I definitely have.

:-)