Sir David Bruce, 6th Baron of Clackmannan & Rate - wrong parents

Philip - on your Charters question - go to the project - I've transcribed there - almost, not quite, finished You can check against it.

https://www.geni.com/projects/Bruce-in-the-Charters/4475537

Hello Scott - Can you put links to the profiles you are discussing as they come up in your discussion?

Re Thomas 1 - birth date estimate 1277-1327 (50 years), no death date, yet the charters state from 1334-1358. The charter states “Thomas Bruce became the Baron of Clackmannan and was granted the castle and lands of Grassmainston, Gartlove, Wester Kennet, Hillend, Carsehill, Greys, Park Meadow, Dryfield, Tullygarth, Pitfoulden and others within the Sherrifdom of Clackmannan from his cousin King David II as a reward for organising an uprising against English rule. So Thomas was King David’s Cousin, as he was named a Bruce would mean it would be paternity, so why is there no parents in GENI for this person?

The problem with that is that Thomas Bruce, 1st Baron of Clackmannan is NOT mentioned in the Charters we have: https://deriv.nls.uk/dcn23/9494/94948513.23.pdf and not even Cawley can find the sources being used https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm#RobertIdied1329A. By rights we should remove him from the Geni tree altogether.

Re Robert 2 - born before 1348 (if the father was born in 1277 he would have been in his 70s when born, even then he was 5 when he replaced his dad). He gave his son Thomas Bruce, 1st of Wester Kennet, Pitfoulden and Cruicket. This seems to be the first time “Wester Kennet” is mentioned. So this would seem that the lands of Kennet was split into east / West Kennet, has a birth of “before 1389 Death: after 1399” these dates don’t add up.

The estimated dates are put there by the Geni programme when they are left empty by users - so they're just a range, outside of which impossibility is an alert to the users to look more closely at the surrounding profiles on the tree. Sir Robert Bruce, 2nd Baron Clackmannan & Rate; proprietor of lands of Kennet can definitely have inherited as a minor

No. 4, dated 9th December, 1359, is the first charter yet known containing any grant of the Castle and Barony of Clackmannan. It was made by King David Bruce to and in favour of his beloved and faithful cousin, ("dilecto et fedeli consanguineo nostro,") Robert de Bruys of the Castle and Barony of Clackmannan, the lands of Grasmenston, Gartlove, Wester Kennet, Hillend, Carsehill, Greys, Park Meadow, Dryfield, Tullygarth, Pitfoulden, and others, within the Sheriffdom of Clackmannan.
This charter is believed to be still in existence. It was quoted by Dr Nathaniel Johnston in 1691, when he wrote his MS. History of the Braces, now among the Harliem MS., No. 3079, in the British Museum, and the original is presumed to be with the Bruce charters in the repositories of the Hon. Bruce Oglivie, who, through his mother, is descended from the Bruces of Clackmannan. As explained under No. 3, the word " consanguineo nostri" are a recognition of this Robert Bruce as the King's blood relation. It is probable that he may have been the son of Sir Robert de Bruce mentioned in Nos. 1. and 2 who was living between 1326 and 1330. Robert de Bruce, it will be observed, who obtains the lands of Clackmannan, is not called "Dominus," or Sir, in the first charter ; he therefore was probably very young at the time of his father's death, (which Chalmers, in his MS. notes to Douglas' Peerage of Scotland, fixes in 1332), and this may account for a period of 27 years before we again find among the present existing charters any notice of Clackmannan or the Bruces. https://deriv.nls.uk/dcn23/9494/94948513.23.pdf''

Your point about Wester Kennet already appearing here is very useful. Thankyou.

The really needed bit, is because it alerts managers of that particular profile as to where to find the piece of a very long discussion that pertains to it.

Also, logically, I still have to search for each individual profile to examine it, so it's politeness to put the link there for me, to help me answer you without having to re-invent the wheel.

It's why I do it.

Otherwise the time wasted is simply deferred from you to me.

I'm not seeing a charter fort Thomas. I'd be delighte if I or anybody else had found it and just forgotten that we had. Please post it here if you can see it.

RE Sharon, with that lodging, all lines should be wiped, as NO ONE can say where their exact line starts!

All lines DO come to a top end where the parents cannot be known. The logic says not to invent parents without primary sources or you're creating mythology, not recording genealogical history.

Re Robert 3 - born 1353-1367 and took over from dad in 1403, he passed it on in 1405 and died in “circa 1406”

On Sir Robert Bruce, 3rd Baron of Clackmannan - I'm not seeing a birthdate?

David 4- born “circa 1388” died between 1399-1423”. This is concerning as it states in the charters they are using he had the charter till 1428 which is a 5 year gap between death and charter!

Sir David Bruce, 4th Baron of Clackmannan - I'll change to before 24th Sept 1428. I'd just mistranscribed a 3 for the 8. Thanks for spotting. We both appear to be using the first charter that mentions his son as Lord to put a cut off date on his death. I'm guessing that I used 1399 because that's the last charter I could find him mentioned in.

John 5- born estimated between 1400-1422 and died between 1473-1478. Charter they use is from 1428 till 1473.

Sir John Bruce, 5th Baron of Clackmannan & Rait date of birth on Geni is a programme estimate that looks good to me. It's based on the 1423 doc, I assume- which, if I look closely at the original still looks like it should be a 3, not an 8. Now I've changed the other to 1428 - the programme will change it to 1428 as well.

On the death, my 1473 is the date the living father resigns the title to his son, and 1478 is the date the son is first recorded as using it. Logically, the father died somewhere between those two dates.

David 6- born 1448-1458 and died before 1506. Charter is 1473 - 1497, received the charter on his fathers death in 1473 (which is why the dates at once are so confusing as it gives a complete date so why have a set of dates?)

On "Charter is 1473 - 1497" Scott, these: https://www.clackmannanshire.scot/index.php/history/barony-of-clack... are NOT Charters. They're doing what we're doing, using the Charters. They're also not showing birth and death dates at all.

Sir David Bruce, 6th Baron of Clackmannan & Rate - birth date range is a Geni programme estimation of possibility/likelihood. I'm not following you about the death date, unless you're not reading the Charters closely. The living father passes the title to his son during his own lifetime, and 'pensions' off; doesn't die.

On the rest - I'll look when you return.

Philip, I'm not going around in any more circles on this one. You can read the charters carefully yourself, or read further up on this Discussion. I've been more than patient and, to quote you, "I'm getting tired of repeating myself".

David Bruce of Wester Kennet x Agnes Redheugh is NOT his cousin David Bruce, Baron of Clackmannan.

cf https://www.geni.com/discussions/222593?msg=1626906 as only one iteration of this, which I'm not doing again.

And I've had enough of your conversation devolving into personal insults, followed by an apology; followed by a repeat of the behaviour. I'm not stooping to this. I'm moving on with the work on the line.

https://www.geni.com/discussions/222593?msg=1626918

Wester Kennet land ownership in the time of David and Agnes's son: David Bruce, of Wester Kennet (jnr)

1490 — Instrument of Sasine in favour of David Bruce, as heir to David Bruce of Wester Kennet, his father, in the lands of Wester Kennet, lying in the county of Clackmannan,Ur given propriis manibis by David Bruce of Clackmannan, superior of said lands, the symbol of infeftment being a black ox.

17th May, 1495 Inquest in virtue of precept from King James IV., holden at Kennet by Sir William Monteith, Sheriff of Clackmannan, at the complaint of Agnes Redheugh, spouse of the deceased David Bruce of Kennet, against Gilbert Brady, for troubling her in the peaceable possession of a head-rig of land, the grass of a ward, the grass of a forebank at the Cruiketland, and others. Whereupon the said Inquest found her entitled to possess the same, as she and her said deceased husband had done for fifty years past.

No. 30.— 9th, Jan., 1514— Instrument of Seisin propriis manibus in favour of David Bruce of Wester Kennet, by Gilbert Brady of Easter Kennet in, 10 riggs of Corlin, 12 riggs on the north side of Kennet Hill, and 7 riggs on the south side thereof. Witnesses : David Bruce, of Clackmannan, knight, James Blyth, James Coston, and John Burn.

No. 31 13th Oct. 1523 — Instrument bearing that Thomas Brown in consideration of a certain sum of money grants liberty to David Bruce to graze a cow in the eommonty of the town of Clackmannan for the space of 19 years from the feast of Pasehe then next. Witnesses : James Riddock, and James and Gilbert Blyth.

No. 32 .20th May, 1524 Instrument bearing that David Bruce of Kennet on the one part, and Gilbert Coston, Henry Younger, and Herbert Brown, inhabiters of Lord Erskines land in the Ferryton, on the other part, having gone forth to ascertain the limits of a dyke and ditch made by the said David Bruce, between the lands of Wester Kennet and the said lands of Ferryton, found the same to be entirely within and upon the said lands of Wester Kennet. Witnesses ; Friar William Dyke, Andrew Drys- dale, and John Porterfield.

No. 33.— 11th Aug., 1534— Instrument of Sasine in favour of John Brady of Easter Kennet, in 7£ riggs of land in the carse of Kennet, and 10 riggs in the dryfield of Kennet, given propriis manibus by David Bruce of Wester Kennnt, superior of said lands. Witnesses : James Riddock, in Clackmannan, Alexander Douglas, Andrew Heggie, and John Kynmound.

No. 34. 11th Aug., 1534— Instrument of Resignation by John Brady of Easter Kennet, into the hands of David Bruce of Wester Kennet, of the lands mentioned in Nos. 33 and 41. (Blackadder Charters, W.D.B.)
No. 41.— 24th April, 1543 —Instrument of Sasine in favour of Robert, son of David Bruce of Kennet, in seven riggs of land on the south side of Kennet hill lying in country of Clackmannan, given propriis manibus of the said David Bruce, in terms of the Charter thereof. To be holden blench of the said David Bruce and his heirs, for payment of twopence, money af Scotland, at the feast of Pentecost, yearly. Witnesses : John Dow alias Henderson, John Heyk, James Hogg, and Mr John Bruce, notary.

David Bruce, of Wester Kennet (jnr) son of David Bruce, of Wester Kennet (snr) & Agnes Redheugh