Sir David Bruce, 6th Baron of Clackmannan & Rate - wrong parents

The dissertation states that Barbour's patron might have been Robert II, but that the patron is unknown.

Barbour is not the source for government documents and does not appear at all in the Charters of Clackmannan.

That Balfour Paul, Lord Lyon King of Arms, who was responsible for Scottish heraldry in his day, used a poem instead of actual documents for his genealogy is quite an accusation -- what is the evidence for that?

Thomas Bruce, 1st of Wester Kennet, Pitfoulden and Cruicket. is the son of Sir Robert Bruce, 3rd Baron of Clackmannan according to the Charters, and not a Broase:

From the Charters of Clackmannen

No. 9 - 2 May 1389 -Thomas obtains Kennet from his father .— Charter of Robert de Bruys of Clackmannan and Rate to and in favour of Thomas de Bruys, his son, whereby " for good services" he grants the said Thomas the lands of Wester Kennet and others for payment to his said father of a silver penny yearly. In the history of Noble British Families, part 3, p. 15, it is stated that Robert de Bruce died about this period, and the next Charters of resignation were probably made by the possessor of the estate on succeeding thereto.

No. 11 - 10th June, 1393 — Charter by Robert de Bruys, Lord of Rate and Clackmannan, to his " beloved son, Thomas de Bruys," and his heirs, and assigns of an annualent of ten merks, payable furth off his lands of Tullygarth, lying in the county of Clackmannan, and that in consideration of a certain sum of money paid to him, the said Robert de Bruys, in his urgent necessity. To be holden of the said Robert de Bruys and his heirs redeemable on payment of the sum of 25 merks.

No. 12 - 18th February, 1399 — Crown Charter of Resignation and Confirmation by King Robert III., ratifying and confirming the Charter No. 9, granted by Robert de Bruys to his son, Thomas, of the lands of Wester Kennet, Pitfoulden, and the Cruikitland, all lying in the county of Clackmannan. From this time the estate of Kennet continued separate from that of Clackmannan, and although the families continued on the most intimate terms, and the heiress of Kennet, in 1568, married one of the cadets of Clackmannan, the estates have never been united. https://archive.org/stream/collectionstowar1868clac/collectionstowa...

--Anne my question is do you see nothing wrong with the Charters, You don't see anything wrong with the Broase's of Wester Kennet taking over the Baroncy of Clackmannan ?--

I have seen no evidence that there has been systematic fraud used to create the charters.

I have seen no evidence that the Bruces in the charters are actually de Braoses.

I tried to isolate as fast as I could yesterday Dean. Thanks.

On naming - it's complicated.

• Usually, if I name, I stick as closely as possible to primary documentation (although naming in that can change too), so I agree with you there.
• If I Curate a profile, I try not to mess with the existing managers' naming - unless it is obviously wrong.
• In this situation, though, there is an Easter Kennet as well, that seems to return to the Clacks line - to David Bruce 7th of Clacks from John Brady between 1534 and 1537- and David the 7th Baron of Clacks seems to divide the inheritence between his son, Edward of Blairhall and his grandson Robert 8th of Clacks (whose father John, dies before David 7th). So it needs someone to carefully track the documentation to see where Easter Kennet comes into play and then is finally reunited with Wester Kennet into one Kennet under Robert 8th of Clacks.

I haven't had a chance to do that yet, but would welcome a second eye.

I suspect that the reason Philip isn't happy, is not because he's confused by the names, but because he has a pre-existing template in his head where some people are simply other people - and documentatry evidence isn't going to budge that, because his issues about right and wrong don't pertain to correct/ provable and incorrect; but to moral / ethical and immoral - which is outside the scope of genealogy.

Philip, you are being insulting again. Nobody said you are immoral. Your repeatedly answered question by Anne "You don't see anything wrong with the Broase's of Wester Kennet taking over the Baroncy of Clackmannan ?--" indicates that she is answering genealogically a question you intend to be about morality - or why would you not accept her answer?

Dean, this is possibly useful to use while we're sorting Easter from Wester Kennet:

The Charters, &c., (No. 24, 30, 32, 34, 39, and 42,) show that David Bruce of Kennet who succeeded in 1490, continued to be proprietor till his death, between 1543 and 1547. No. 43 shows that his eldest son was Patrick. The claim made by John Bruce (see No. 42) cannot refer to the whole estate of Kennet, but merely to the portions specially mentioned, to which John Bruce acquired right by some arrangement with his father. The designation "Wester Kennet" shows him to have been one of the family of Brace of Kennet, and it would rather appear from subsequent writs (see Nos. 50, 53, and 54,) that he was the next eldest son to Patrick, and afterwards succeeded to the whole estate of Kennet, and dying without issue, was succeeded by the next son, Kobert. .,

Philip, I'm not discussing this line with you anymore. Anything that doesn't agree with your desired outcome is labelled as fraudulent. There is no answer except your own conspiracy, and I'm not going in any more circles.

No. 30.— 9th, Jan., 1514— Instrument of Seisin propriis manibus in favour of David Bruce of Wester Kennet, by Gilbert Brady of Easter Kennet in, 10 riggs of Corlin, 12 riggs on the north side of Kennet Hill, and 7 riggs on the south side thereof. Witnesses : David Bruce, of Clackmannan, knight, James Blyth, James Coston, and John Burn.

1.This suggests that by the time that Agnes and David's son takes over in Kennet - there is definitely an Easter and a Wester Kennet.
Do you think this David should be the first one called David Bruce of Wester Kennet? Are there no Bruce's prior to this in charge of only Wester Kennet? (I don't know - we need to check the Charters) cf David Bruce, of Wester Kennet (jnr)

2. It also shows clearly that there is a completely different Sir David of Clacks. cf Sir David Bruce, 7th Baron Of Clackmannan

Dean - here the husband of Agnes is called David Bruce of Wester Kennet:

1490 — Instrument of Sasine in favour of David Bruce, as heir to David Bruce of Wester Kennet, his father, in the lands of Wester Kennet, lying in the county of Clackmannan,Ur given propriis manibis by David Bruce of Clackmannan, superior of said lands, the symbol of infeftment being a black ox.

No. 24 — 1490 — Instrument of Sasine in favour of [[David Bruce, of Wester Kennet (jnr) David Bruce, of Wester Kennet (jnr)] David Bruce], as heir to [[David Bruce, of Wester Kennet (snr) David Bruce, of Wester Kennet (snr)] David Bruce of Wester Kennet], his father, in the lands of Wester Kennet, lying in the county of Clackmannan,Ur given propriis manibis by [[Sir David Bruce, 6th Baron of Clackmannan & Rate Sir David Bruce, 6th Baron of Clackmannan & Rate] David Bruce of Clackmannan], superior of said lands, the symbol of infeftment being a black ox.

a1 Sir Robert Bruce, 2nd Baron Clackmannan & Rate; proprietor of lands of Kennet & Isobell Stewart

a1b1 Sir Robert Bruce, 3rd Baron of Clackmannan <1389 - d<1406
x NN mistress

a1b1c1 Thomas Bruce, 1st of Wester Kennet, Pitfoulden and Cruicket. c1389

a1b1c1d1 [[Peter Bruce, of Kennet Peter Bruce, of Kennet] Peter or Patrick de Bruys of Wester Kennet] <1423

a1b1c1d1e1 Unknown parent dies before father?

a1b1c1d1e1f1 David Bruce, of Wester Kennet (snr)?through=6000000168883371914 <1447- c1480-90 x Agnes Redheugh

a1b1c1d1e1f1g1 David Bruce, of Wester Kennet (jnr) fl 1490

xx Annabelle Scrymgeour

a1b1c2 Sir David Bruce, 4th Baron of Clackmannan >1389 - <1423 , who succeeded x Jean Stewart

a1b1c2d1 Sir John Bruce, 5th Baron of Clackmannan & Rait <1422 - c 1473-8 x Elizabeth Stewart

a1b1c2d1e1 Sir David Bruce, 6th Baron of Clackmannan & Rate -<1506 x Mariota Herries

a1b1c2d1e1f1 Sir David Bruce, 7th Baron Of Clackmannan <1497->1556 x Janet Blackadder

a1b1c3 Alexander of Stanehous and Airth

No. 25 — 17th May, 1495 Inquest in virtue of precept from King James IV., holden at Kennet by Sir William Monteith, Sheriff of Clackmannan, at the complaint of Agnes Redheugh, spouse of the deceased David Bruce of Kennet, against Gilbert Brady, for troubling her in the peaceable possession of a head-rig of land, the grass of a ward, the grass of a forebank at the Cruiketland, and others. Whereupon the said Inquest found her entitled to possess the same, as she and her said deceased husband had done for fifty years past. cf David Bruce, of Wester Kennet (snr) x Agnes Redheugh

No. 26 — 14rh Septr., 1497— Crown Charter of Resignation by King James IV., to David Bruce, son of David Bruce of Clackmannan* of the lands and Barony of Clackmannan, lying in the County thereof, and lands of Rate, lying in the county of Perth, proceeding on the resignation of the said David Bruce, elder. To be holden by the King and his successors, under the burden of the liferent of the said David Bruce, elder, and Margeret Harries, his wife. cf Sir David Bruce, 6th Baron of Clackmannan & Rate x Mariot "Marion" Herries son:Sir David Bruce, 7th Baron Of Clackmannan

Re the question — “You can call them what ever you want, my question is do you not see anything wrong with the Wester Kennet bunch taking over the Barony of Clackmannan?”

1) This is an example of “moving the goalposts,” a logical fallacy; the issue of the Bruces being Braoses had been one of the questions I was answering, and is also one of the assertions that has not been proved.

2) It would be totally dreadful if one bunch of people took over a barony, but I’ve seen no evidence that they did.

3) Showing that an entire group of government charters has been fraudulently created requires getting over a very high bar indeed, and that has not been done.

I’m really of no more use in this discussion. I’ve made my points clear, I believe, and there is really no more for me to say on the matter.

I totally did answer your question. But I cannot give you an answer you would like.