Sir David Bruce, 6th Baron of Clackmannan & Rate - wrong parents

Started by sandra regner on Saturday, December 5, 2020
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David Bruce of Wester Kennet (who marries Agnes Redheugh) is clearly named as the elder cousin of John Bruce, of Clackmannan. (See family tree above, which bears this out.)

Doesn't say Wester Kennet in hid death record.

Name: David Bruce
Residents Place: Kennet
Notes: David Bruce, of Kennet, who wedded Agnes Redhach, and had a son; David, his heir. This Laird d. In the beginning of James the fourths reign, as appears by a perambulation of the marches, wherein is mentioned Agnes Redhach, relict of the deceased David Bruce, of Kennet, &c. dated 17 May 1496. His son and heir,

Source Citation
A genealogical and Heraldic History of the Commoners of Great Britain and Ireland. Enjoying Territorial Possession of High Official Rank : But Univested with Heraldic Honours; Chapter: History of the Commoners of Great Britain and Ireland. ;
Heading: Bruce, of Kennet; Subheading: Lineage.

Source Information
Ancestry. com. Burkes Commoners of Great Britain and Ireland [database on-line]
Provo, ut, USA: Ancestry. Com Operations, Inc., 2002

Original data: Burke, Bernard. A genealogical and Heraldic History of the gentry.
1837-1838
Sir Bernard Burke, C.B., LL.D., Ulster King of Arms.

"Collections Towards a History of the County of Clackmannan" (Agnes Redheugh on p. 7):

https://digital.nls.uk/histories-of-scottish-families/archive/94948...

No. 26. Who are they talking about here. Its dated 1497 and David 6th is dead?
Also Robert Bruce of Rait "it would seem!" is dead. Any info on the death date of Robert Bruce of Rait?
Things are not making any sense here.

Private User Charter 26 specifically is referring to the resignation of David Bruce #6 to his son David Bruce #7, and retaining a life estate for #6 and his wife, Margaret Harries in 1497.

At the end of Charter #26, it says the explanation for #26 is at the end of #27 and #28 (and referred to as "Douglas' History" version).

Dean David 6th is dead.

Yes, he's dead, several hundred years. Don't take this the wrong way... LOL.. but you need to start being more specific -- because all these people had the same name.

I am assuming you mean "David 6th was dead by ........ some event....or year..."

If this is the David you are referring to,
Sir David Bruce, 6th Baron of Clackmannan & Rate

He died AFTER the 1497 Charter 26. It tells you that. IF this is the profile you are referring to, his About Comments say he died circa 1500. (I am assuming the .2 in the date was left over from someone copying something that had a footnote, or something).

And, if by Robert Bruce, you mean this guy,
Robert Bruce, of Rait

Yes, at the bottom of the page within Charter 27, it says that "Robert Bruce, the eldest son of David Bruce (see #22) had died before 3 Feb 1506. I see in the profile it uses Charter #27 as a date reference, but it might better to have Robert's death be BETWEEN 14 Sep 1497 and BEFORE ca. 1500. or whatever the father's profile death date is decided upon for consistency to show you are referring to those people.

I note that the descriptions of #26, 27, 28 refer to land charters and not official 'titles'. The older son Robert's profile has him dying BEFORE that 14 Sep 1497 transfer (#26), but #27 actually states that all that is known is that Robert died "before his father"... which in the father's profile I mention above, says probably circa 1500. And connected to that is Charter #28 in 1506. So it all happened between 1497 and 1506.

Dean I've just shared David 6th death record saying he died in 17 May 1496, does not say Wester Kennet, says Kennet.
David 7th died 1497.
In 1485 brother of David 6th died, Robert Bruce.
In 1485 on the marriage of Robert Bruce of Rait to Elizabeth Lindsay, who is the son of David 7th.
In 1506 they say that Old David d. 1496 is still alive and consented to Robert Bruce of Rait giving his uncle the Barony of Clackmannan!
Firstly this uncle David of Wester Kennet is not his uncle!, Fraud was committed here.
Who are your direct descendants Dean?

Charter 26. Margaret Harries is not the wife of David 6th, she is the wife of David Broase of Wester Kennet, who died 1506.
Agnes Redhach is David 6th wife, are you struggling to read David 6th death record?

The Document doesn't open for me, but if this is the one you've uploaded from Ancestry, it is clearly from the 1800s, clearly not a death record - just a page out of a book; clrearly doesn't show it's sources BUT I presume the sources are the Charters, because it agrees completely with this man:David Bruce, of Wester Kennet (snr) to whom I've pointed you above more than once.

Name: David Bruce
Residents Place: Kennet
Notes: David Bruce, of Kennet, who wedded Agnes Redhach, and had a son; David, his heir. This Laird d. In the beginning of James the fourths reign, as appears by a perambulation of the marches, wherein is mentioned Agnes Redhach, relict of the deceased David Bruce, of Kennet, &c. dated 17 May 1496. His son and heir,

Source Citation
A genealogical and Heraldic History of the Commoners of Great Britain and Ireland. Enjoying Territorial Possession of High Official Rank : But Univested with Heraldic Honours; Chapter: History of the Commoners of Great Britain and Ireland. ;
Heading: Bruce, of Kennet; Subheading: Lineage.

Source Information
Ancestry. com. Burkes Commoners of Great Britain and Ireland [database on-line]
Provo, ut, USA: Ancestry. Com Operations, Inc., 2002

Original data: Burke, Bernard. A genealogical and Heraldic History of the gentry.
1837-1838
Sir Bernard Burke, C.B., LL.D., Ulster King of Arms.

This is the genealogy produced using the primary sources of the Charters -

Balfour Paul and (from what I can see) your Burke, agree with it completely - but they are tertiary sources.

With all due respect, Philip, I've spent many hours building this from your sources, and many more going round and round asking for you to argue using primary sources. (You have now repeatedly told us we're talking "nonsense", but provided no primary documentsation to refute the above) I remain unsure what your vested interest is in misreading, and I'm sorry the docs aren't showing whatever you wanted them to, but until you provide Primary Sources for your theory, I'm not going to engage further. I wish you only well.

Private User sorry, without a link to the profiles you are referring to, I can't tell if they are the same people or just other people with the same name you are thinking they are. Good luck.

Gosh Philip, I don't know what you're saying, but it can't be nice. Let's at least be amicable. I've tried very hard to use the primary documentation you gave me accurately.

No you haven't, I've explained what has accured with my family!, we have had everything stolen from us by these fraudulent Broases. In the charters it says that Agnes Redbeugh is the spouse of old David 6th and I've pointed out that Margaret Harries is the spouse of David Broase which is the Airth fraudsters. Have a look at the charters of Airth and have a look at how many of these people from this family have been put to death...for committing fraud, claiming to be Bruce's. I've given you the death record of David Bruce, I've shown you the Dodge Genealogy survey giving the royal Bruce lineage, have given you the chambers Encyclopedia.
Have tried my best to explain who these Broase's are and it just seems like im wasting my time and I'm getting upset and certainly don't need Dean pulling my chain and telling me good luck.
Look David Broase married 1.Janet Stirling, 2. Margaret Harris died 1506 and David Bruce died 1496 married Agnes Redbeugh can not be the same person. Broases of Wester Kennet can not be Bruce's of Easter Kennet.
The history of the Broase's is shocking and I just can't believe the Bruce's are being confused with them, all these Broases do is fraud.
So I apologize for loosing my marbles.

Primary sources are what you need.

Sharon so what is a primary source?

Ok so if the charters are considered the primary source then lets look closer.
I understand why you think David 6th of Clackmannan died 1495, this is incorrect as it can only be a misprint!
Charter No. 25 - 17th May 1495. Complaint by Agnes Redhach.....50 years past, 17th May 1496.
So as you can see two different date's!
The death record given 17 May 1496 is given by Bernard Burgh who was the premiere genealogist of his time. The Charter goes on to say a Royal grant to the Bruce's of Clackmannan.
So these Bruce's who are being spoken about here, it is clearly stating that the Bruce's of Kennet are the Bruce's of Clackmannan.
Then for same reason they say (see No. 158) , this is so odd !
Sharon are you understanding what I'm trying to say here?

Take note who they are talking about here.

No. 24 - 1490 - Instrument of Sasin in fovour of David Bruce, as heir to David Bruce of Wester Kennet, his father, in the lands of Wester Kennet, lying in the county of Clackmannan, given propriis minibus by David Bruce of Clackmannan, superior of the said lands...ox. So as you can see from this Charter there are two different families and David 6th of Clackmannan being the superior. So these two Davids of Wester Kennet take advantage of David 6th and 7th dying with in a year and Robert Bruce of Clackmannan and Rait being young.
Witness Robert Brady of Wester Kennet ( see No. 25), Thomas Bruce of Green ( All part of the Wester Kennet crew).
Then they say the document is mutilated!
They start talking about the Davids of Kennet and say see also No. 25. What has Charter 25 got to do with Charter 24 ? Nothing.
Charter 25. We are dealing with the Bruce's of Kennet and Clackmannan, not Wester Kennet!
and you can clearly see there are two different family's.
The point is we are coming up the line George Bruce of Carnock, Robert Bruce of Blairhall and Easter Kennet, Edward Bruce of Blairhall and Easter Kennet, Robert Bruce of Clackmannan and Rait, David Bruce 7th of Clackmannan and O'Lack, David Bruce 6th of Clackmannan and Rait ( The whole Kennet being inside Clackmannan), ther is no Wester Kennet here, so I believe according to the Charters this line above mentioned should be running up the Clackmannan, Kennet line and not the Wester Kennet line as is currently being run.
The Wester Kennet line comes from the Green/Airth line. We can have a look at the Airth Charters and you will see this family are the Broase's.
Sharon is this primary?

This is the fraud, lets take a closer look.

Charter No. 26 - 14 Sep 1497 - Crown Charter of Resignation by King James IV., to David Bruce, son of David Bruce of Clackmannan of the lands and Barony of Clackmannan, lying in the county thereof, and Lands of Rate, lying in the county of Perth, proceeding on the Resignation of the said David Bruce elder. To be ....David Bruce elder and Margaret Harries, his wife.

This Charter is to the Wester Kennet Bruce's/Broases and we know that David Bruce 6th of Clackmannan is dead 1496. They name this Davids wife Margaret Herries, his second wife Janet Stirling. The Broase's are the Stewart's and the Stewart kings name these Broase's as family...which they are.
According to the Charters the current line being run is incorrect and needs to be corrected.

Not addressing specifics here, but speaking generally:

1) the charters as given in the link we are all looking at are transcriptions of the original charters (which may or may not be held at the University of Edinburgh; it would take a while to track them down, and since they have not been digitized and I'm not going to be traveling to Scotland to see them, I'm letting that go). As such, they are what we accept as primary sources. Without actually seeing the original charters, we can go no further back.

2) Certainly sometimes the clerks writing out such charters could make mistakes, and certainly we have cases of medieval genealogical fraud, but such fraud does not show up in charters; it shows up in genealogies and chronicles. Charters are extremely important documents, and are carefully drawn up -- at least at the level of the ones we have been looking at. Systematic fraud at that level of government documentation makes no sense; it would call into question all of the documentation. I know of no cases where that was going on. Better, if you need to create fraud, to simply destroy things. (By the way; it's no indication of any kind of nefarious activity on the part of the clerks, or even the keepers of the documents, that some documents show up, hundreds of years later, mutilated. Could it happen purposefully? Sure. But almost always it's rats, or bugs, or somebody dropped ale on one of the documents, or somebody hundreds of years later tore some of it off to line pie tins -- there was a long time for stuff to happen. The royal and noble documents tend to be better kept (local documents are in dreadful shape much of the time), but even so, things happen.)

3) the de Bruses and the de Braoses both came into the British Isles from Normandy, but from two different places, the Bruces from Brix and the de Braoses from Briouze, and though later people confused them, they were quite different. And the de Bruses were active in Scotland and the de Braoses were active in the Welsh Marches. And though I myself have no love for the de Braoses (the Christmas Massacre being only one part of this), I have never seen evidence that the de Braoses claimed to be de Bruses. They were way too busy being de Braoses, which they had high notions of. If later generations claimed this, ok, but later generations could not have changed charters to show a false line -- that would appear in the notes to the transcripts, believe me -- nor could they have faked the charters -- a very very difficult thing to do, and even the charter forgery ring at Winchester didn't manage to convince anybody (they were all about a fake endowment from William I to the abbey at Hastings).

4) At my count so far, there are four or five David Bruces showing up in just the few charters that we are looking at here. The charters seem to be being careful to delineate them, within each charter, but that does not mean that the clerks writing one charter are using exactly the same nomenclature as the clerks writing others. So they are, essentially, confusing. That does not mean, necessarily, that anybody is nefariously confusing them so as to create false lineages.

I'm not seeing a reason to question the charters.

Thanks Anne, it's how I'm seeing the Charters, as to fraud being committed, it's very likely in my opinion, have a look at the Airth charters. Have you seen them, if you haven't I'll find the link, this is your department and I'll leave it in your capable hands. I will also like the Blair writes to be looked at as it gives a lot of info that is missing in the Charters where it is blank for about 80 years and they fill in the gap. The learnerd Crawford gives his take on things as well.
Up until quiet recently the Charters of Robert Bruce King of Scots and David II where missing, we have them know and they are in line with the Dodge Genealogy and the Chambers Encyclopedia who have the Royal Bruce's of Clackmannan as the descendants of Robert the Bruce. Will give you time to work things out and thank you for your time and effort Anne.
There is actually quiet few Broases connected to the Bruce lineage, including the rather famous William Broase for all the wrong reasons.
He is in the Ragmans Roll and ther is mention of Broases in Skelton, they are also connected to William Bruce on the Annandale line as well as Robert the 5th, they are mentioned in the Annandale charters as witnesses. The Broase's are the Seneshals.

The Seneshals of Dol: Histories and Mysteries of the Stewart Clan.
Author: Jan Eylander Jackson Stewart
https://www.amazon.com/Seneshals-Dol-Histories-Mystories-Stewart/dp...

House of Stewart.
Scottish and English royal family?
Britannica.com
https://www.britannica.com/topic/House-of-Stuart

If you have links to those Charters from the same time periods, and point us to the specific ones you see as conflicting with the Clackmannan Charters about these issues, that would be argument from primary sources.

Sharon will send documentation tomorrow and you can see whats useful to us, thats your department ;)
Get some sleep cuz

Anne Brannen, this excellent study helped clear my uncertainty's.

No True Scotsman: John Barbour's Bruce and National Identity in Fourteenth- Century Scotland.
Author: Hannah Grace Render
https://repository.lib.ncsu.edu/handle/1840.20/36871/etd.pdf?sequen....

Private User — that is indeed a very good dissertation, from 2019, discussing the literary and historical contexts of Barbour’s poem, written in about 1375, and its connection to the construction of Scottish nationalism, but its connection to Scottish charters from the late 15th century is unclear; your assertion, in brief, is that the charters are fraudulent. How is this dissertation backing up that assertion?

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