Sir David Bruce, 6th Baron of Clackmannan & Rate - wrong parents

Ok so No. 25.- 17 May 1495 can we agree that Agnes Redbeugh is the wife of David 6th and mother of David 7th?

No, as I pointed out earlier - she's very clearly not:
No. 25 — 17th May, 1495 Inquest in virtue of precept from King James IV., holden at Kennet by Sir William Monteith, Sheriff of Clackmannan, at the complaint of Agnes Redheugh, spouse of the deceased David Bruce of Kennet

Sharon when you mention Robert Bruce 2nd Baron of Clackmannan, is this the Robert Bruce married to Annabelle Rachel Scrymgeour?

Sir Robert Bruce, 2nd Baron Clackmannan & Rate; proprietor of lands of Kennet (<1348 - c1389)
cousin/nephew to King David
x Isabel Stewart

• Sir Robert, who succeeded
• James, Chancellor of the Kingdom

Sir Sir Robert Bruce, 3rd Baron of Clackmannan succeeded <1389 - d<1406
s/o Robert Bruce & Isobell Stewart
x NN mistress

• Thomas

x daughter of Scrimgeour

• David, who succeeded.
• Alexander of Stanehous and Airth

Thanks Dean.

Philip - No. 25 — 17th May, 1495 specifies that she's the spouse of David Bruce of Kennet.

David Bruce Residents Place: Kennet Notes: David Bruce, of Kennet, who wedded Agnes Redhach and had a son, David his heir. This David his heir. This Laird d. In the beginning of James the fourths reign, as appears by a perambulation of the marches, wherein is mentioned Agnes Redhach, relict of deceased David Bruce of Kennet, dated 17 May 1496, His son and heir. Is David Bruce 7th father David Bruce 6th and mother Agnes Redhach?

No, the Barons during this phase are of Clackmannan - and The Bruces of Kennet are different men

We know she isn't because the 1495 Charter clearly names her as the spouse of David Bruce of Kennet.

They are not the same death date.

Agnes is a widow in 1495

Sir David Bruce, 6th Baron of Clackmannan & Rate is alive and well in 1497, and passing on his estate to his son, as long as he and his wife Margeret Harries (who is mentioned by name as his wife) have a liferent.

No. 26 — 14rh Septr., 1497— Crown Charter of Resignation by King James IV., to David Bruce, son of David Bruce of Clackmannan of the lands and Barony of Clackmannan, lying in the County thereof, and lands of Rate, lying in the county of Perth, proceeding on the resignation of the said David Bruce, elder. To be holden by the King and his successors, under the burden of the liferent of the said David Bruce, elder, and Margeret Harries, his wife.

a1 Sir John Bruce, 5th Baron of Clackmannan & Rait x Elizabeth Stewart of Rossyth

b1 Sir David Bruce, 6th Baron of Clackmannan & Rate
x Janet Stirling, of Keir

b1c1 Robert Bruce, of Rait d before November 29, 1491 x Elizabeth Lindsay

b1c1d1 David Bruce of Rait (b c 1485 - about 21yrs in 1506)

xx Mariot "Marion" Herries

b1c2 Sir David Bruce, 7th Baron Of Clackmannan x Lady Janet Blackadder, Baroness of O'Lack

Philip, it's after midnight, so I'm off to bed. You need proof of that death date. Where is it?

Please actually read the Charters on the project, and my posts. He isn't of Wester Kennet. He's resigning Clackmannan to his son.

No. 26 — 14rh Septr., 1497— Crown Charter of Resignation by King James IV., to David Bruce, son of David Bruce of Clackmannan of the lands and Barony of Clackmannan, lying in the County thereof, and lands of Rate, lying in the county of Perth, proceeding on the resignation of the said David Bruce, elder. To be holden by the King and his successors, under the burden of the liferent of the said David Bruce, elder, and Margeret Harries, his wife.

There is no Charter showing Robert Bruce, of Rait inheriting Clackmannan, only of Rait. His father was alive and still Baron of Clackmannan.

David Bruce of Rait the grandson of Sir David Bruce, 6th Baron of Clackmannan & Rate inherits Rait after his dead father Robert Bruce, of Rait, which the King ratifies in 1506 (presumably on Old David 6th's death)- see above Charter, or No 27 on project.

At the same time, in 1506, the king also ratifies the right of Old David 6ths other son, Sir David Bruce, 7th Baron Of Clackmannan (who has been Baron of Clackmannan since 1497 - see Charter above, or No 26 on project) to Clackmannan.

Just one thing they say David 6th was still alive?and consented to this!

See https://www.geni.com/discussions/222593?msg=1626110. I'm not saying it - the Charter says it clearly.

And you will have to explain Thomas of Wester Kennet being the father, I'm at a loss here.

Thomas Bruce, 1st of Wester Kennet, Pitfoulden and Cruicket. (<1389 - >1399)
Son of Robert Bruce, Baron Clackmannan & Rate; proprietor of lands of Kennet & NN mistress

From the Charters of Clackmannen

No. 9 - 2 May 1389 -Thomas obtains Kennet from his father .— Charter of Robert de Bruys of Clackmannan and Rate to and in favour of Thomas de Bruys, his son, whereby " for good services" he grants the said Thomas the lands of Wester Kennet and others for payment to his said father of a silver penny yearly.

No. 10 - 4th Oct., 1393 — Crown Charter of Resignation by King Robert III., proceeding on the Rocuratory of Resignation of Robert de Bruys, whereby the King new grants the lands and Barony of Clackmannan, and all the pertinents, to Robert de Bruys, whom failing, to David Bruys, his eldest son, and the heirs male, procreated or to be procreated, of his body, whom failing, to Thomas Bruys, also his son, and the heirs male of his body, to be held of the King and his successors in fee and heritage.

By this Charter, Sir Robert Bruce, 3rd Baron of Clackmannan had gone through the ceremony of resigning or giving them back to the King during his life, and the King then made a new grant of them to him, and his two sons, and their heirs male.

No. 11 - 10th June, 1393 — Charter by Robert de Bruys, Lord of Rate and Clackmannan, to his " beloved son, Thomas de Bruys," and his heirs, and assigns of an annualent of ten merks, payable furth off his lands of Tullygarth, lying in the county of Clackmannan, and that in consideration of a certain sum of money paid to him, the said Robert de Bruys, in his urgent necessity. To be holden of the said Robert de Bruys and his heirs redeemable on payment of the sum of 25 merks.

No. 12 - 18th February, 1399 — Crown Charter of Resignation and Confirmation by King Robert III., ratifying and confirming the Charter No. 9, granted by Robert de Bruys to his son, Thomas, of the lands of Wester Kennet, Pitfoulden, and the Cruikitland, all lying in the county of Clackmannan. From this time the estate of Kennet con- tinued separate from that of Clackmannan, and although the families continued on the most intimate terms, and the heiress of Kennet, in 1568, married one of the cadets of Clackmannan, the estates have never been united. https://archive.org/stream/collectionstowar1868clac/collectionstowa...

a1 Sir Robert Bruce, 2nd Baron Clackmannan & Rate; proprietor of lands of Kennet & Isobell Stewart

a1b1 Sir Robert Bruce, 3rd Baron of Clackmannan <1389 - d<1406
x NN mistress

a1b1c1 Thomas Bruce, 1st of Wester Kennet, Pitfoulden and Cruicket.

a1b1c1d1 [[Peter Bruce, of Kennet Peter Bruce, of Kennet] Peter or Patrick de Bruys of Wester Kennet]

xx Annabelle Scrymgeour

a1b1c2 Sir David Bruce, 4th Baron of Clackmannan who succeeded.
a1b1c3 Alexander of Stanehous and Airth

Peter Bruce, of Kennet
Succeeds his father, Thomas in or before 1423
Succeeded by his grandson, David Bruce, in or before 1447.

From the Charters of Clackmannan

No 16 - 22d Dec, 1447 — Discharged by John de Bruce of Clackmannan to his eldest cousin, David, the Bruce of the Kennet, of the sum of 50 merks money of Scotland, addebted to the said John the Bruce, by Peter the Bruce, grandfather of the above-mentioned David.
ie Discharged by Sir John Bruce, 5th Baron of Clackmannan & Rait to his eldest cousin, David Bruce, of Wester Kennet (snr) of the sum of 50 merks money of Scotland, addebted to the said John the Bruce, by Peter Bruce, of Kennet, grandfather of the above-mentioned David.

So:

a1 Sir Robert Bruce, 2nd Baron Clackmannan & Rate; proprietor of lands of Kennet & Isobell Stewart

a1b1 Sir Robert Bruce, 3rd Baron of Clackmannan <1389 - d<1406
x NN mistress

a1b1c1 Thomas Bruce, 1st of Wester Kennet, Pitfoulden and Cruicket.

a1b1c1d1 [[Peter Bruce, of Kennet Peter Bruce, of Kennet] Peter or Patrick de Bruys of Wester Kennet]

a1b1c1d1e1 Unknown parent dies before father

a1b1c1d1e1f1 David Bruce, of Wester Kennet (snr) x Agnes Redheugh

xx Annabelle Scrymgeour

a1b1c2 Sir David Bruce, 4th Baron of Clackmannan who succeeded.

a1b1c2d1 Sir John Bruce, 5th Baron of Clackmannan & Rait

a1b1c3 Alexander of Stanehous and Airth