Captain William Henderson, conflicting DNA & descendants

Started by Jim Henderson on Friday, December 4, 2020
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The aim of this discussion is to try to come to some conclusions together, based on real evidence, about the Hendersons of Virginia, USA, and whether any or many of them were descended from Capt. William Henderson, of Fordell

Why, what's the problem?

Well, as I write on 2020-12-5, one of his sons, Ens. John Henderson Capt. John Henderson is shown with two values for Y-DNA, and he has two fathers, Captain William Henderson and NN Henderson.

If you are a Henderson, as I am (Jim Henderson), you probably know that the Chief of the Henderson Clan is descended from the Fordell line, (taking Sir John Henderson, 4th of Fordell as an example). Naturally, we all want one of our ancestors to be in that line :-) So there is a strong temptation, where we find amongst our ancestors a William or a John, to merge that profile with one of the same name in the Fordell line, and we are IN! :-)

But then a living male amongst our close relatives does a Y-DNA test, and it doesn't match the R-BY2868 value of the current Chief :-(

What to do?

Well, we need to take a more careful look at our family line, and upload documents to Geni and cite them to prove the facts we claim. As we look further back, we may come across a profile that shows two different values for Y-DNA, derived from two different male lines. (The values could be different if one living descendant took a "67" test and the other took a "Big-Y" test, because the former is more generic and the latter is more specific. But if both living descendants took the "67" test, and they got different results, they have to be in different male lines.)

We then need to look along the line and decide where the undue merge was made, and in the Revisions tab undo the merge.

We then need to ask a Curator to make the two profiles Master Profiles and lock them against re-merging.

I've started this discussion because of the confusion surrounding the descendants of Captain William Henderson, in the hope that people who know real details about these people and can prove them with documents that they upload and cite. Then we can lock everything down so that the lines don't gain more accretions from less experienced Geni members, who see a blue flag and love to do tree merges.

I am not descended from these lines, so I don't want to be making these decisions. I'm doing this because I am a volunteer genealogist with the Clan Henderson Society, and some of our members have their roots in Virginia USA, but their Y-DNA doesn't match the Fordell line. The most prominent of these is the leader of the group researching the Henderson family at Family Tree DNA, Private User. David has done the "67" test, it doesn't match the Fordell line. But the family history passed down from his forbears leads back to Samuel Henderson, who was said to be the son of Captain William Henderson. When he realised the DNA didn't match, he broke the link to Captain William Henderson and made the father of Samuel be NN Henderson.

Since then he and I have been trying to set things straight, but well-meaning members see similar names and merge people back together again (grrr).

So please feel free to contribute to this discussion and to add documents to profiles and cite them to support facts. Jim Henderson

I'll start us off with some well-documented people way back there and follow the line down toward the present as the generations go by.

I started with the Geni profile Capt. William Henderson, of Fordell and went father-to-father back to Sir John Henderson, 4th of Fordell 1564 - 1618, so I'll start there. He is well documented in the Overview tab with information from The Peerage, a great set of linked web pages that is derived from the information in Burk's Peerage.

In the father-to-father line the next one is Sir John Henderson, Kt., 5th of Fordell. He is also well documented, including by a page at The Peerage.

Next comes William Henderson. Erica Howton has written a nice biography of him in the Overview tab, and there is a link there to his entry in The Peerage site, but it doesn't mention his wife nor does it mention his children.

Next comes John Henderson, listed as
born 1655-07-01 in Fife, Scotland
died 1681-01-28 in Fife, Scotland
but with no documents to support any facts about him. Did he really exist?
Here we need some input from people who know these people well.
There is discussion in the Discussions tab about him
John Henderson . This discussion mentions a page at RootsWeb: https://wc.rootsweb.com/trees/125832/I160078/-/individual which lists his wife as Magdalene Lundie and his children as William and Alexander. (His profile also lists a Jesse, who is female, despite the name being spelled as men spell theirs.)

His partner, Magdeline Lundie, has some discrepancies listed at Geni:
"Baptism date of Magdeline Lundie is before her birth date.
Magdeline Lundie born after the death of her mother Elspet Lundie (Honeyman).
Magdeline Lundie born after the death of her father William Lundie."
Could someone who knows these people fix some of these?

Next in line is Capt. William Henderson, of Fordell, the main subject of this discussion.

I'll post at this point.

The "Jesse" in my previous post is in the profile of John Henderson at Geni, not at RootsWeb. I didn't make that clear.

I have just done a search on Scotland's Peoples for William. We know his birth is recorded in 1676. That document is attached and the birth parents are recorded correctly.
The problem I find is that there are no births recorded in the data for William and Margaret Bruce. There are a number of births to William and Margaret by other surnames, but no Bruce. There are no births at all for William and Grizzel.
I also searched the marriage records and found nothing for William and Margaret Bruce. Again, there are many other Margarets who married a William. Again, no birth record for anyone named Grizzell.
The only marriage record I have seen for William and Margaret Bruce is in Find a Grave and I have not seen any serious documentation other than the listing there. I fear someone may have entered it based on one of these badly researched genealogies.
We know Captain William existed. We know William son of John was born. There is at least one alternate parent in the various trees for Captain William. If he was in fact buried at Fordell then one assumes a high probability that he is indeed the son of Sir John.
it would be useful to consider alternate spouses for him. If he was born and married and buried in Fordell, it seems unlikely that there would not be some records for his family in the records.

I have just cited that document (https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000047139769104) as supporting his parents, John Henderson and Magdeline Lundie. I hope that's not premature.

The 27th Apryle in the document -- is that the date he was baptized?
Should we change Captain William's profile to show that date as the date of his baptism, not the date of his birth?

That should be date of baptism. in most cases that is all we have back then since births were not recorded.

Thanks. Fixed.

I believe it is very unlikely that John (Rose Findley) Henderson was son of Captain William. The immigrants to Augusta Co, VA were Ulster Scots. Many of theme were related, though the exact relationships are unclear.
I think it unlikely that John b. 1706 married to Rose was an Ensign. He would have been quite old to participate in any war other than the French and Indian War. We know that Samuel b. 1713 did fight in that war, so it is possible that John did as well. His will is recorded in 1766 and lists one son, William, and daughters unnamed. We know he had property west of Staunton recorded in 1747..
There was a John Henderson in virtually every Henderson family in Augusta. David, Samuel, James, and William. We don't have wills for Thomas and Archibald. There was a different John who is listed as shoemaker in the records.
So the question we need to answer is in what military unit Ens. John served. That may let us sort this out. It is not impossible there were 2 Rose Findleys, but having two in the same generation seems unlikely. More probably, if there are indeed two of them, they would be from different generations and that means the two Johns would be from different generatoin.

Please share the linkage to Ulster Scots in the Augusta, VA group.

There is more information to the contrary that I have found recently.

#1-
"John, James and Samuel Henderson, brothers and sons of Wm.
Henderson and Margaret Bruce and grandsons of John Henderson,
Gent., of Fifeshyre, Scotland, came to Virginia about 1740. They
all settled in Augusta county where they married and brought up
families.

John Henderson was an Ensign in the Augusta Militia in the
French and Indian War, and in 1758 received fourteen shillings
pay. His will was recorded in Augusta county, 1766, and mentions
a son, William, two daughters unnamed, and his wife, Rosa Finley,
who was a sister of John Finley, one of the first Justices of the
county."

-Taken from the Henderson Chronicles: https://archive.org/stream/hendersonchronic00mccu/hendersonchronic0...

#2-
"In this old book, printed in 1707, and now owned by the writer of this sketch, is written in quaint, faded characters the following family record :

Wm Henderson Gent & Margt Bruce Mar'd Feb 7 1705
John Son to Wm born'd Feb 9 1706
Jas Son to Wm born'd Jan 17 1708
Bruce Son to Wm born'd May 10 1710 Dyed Sept 1719
Saml Son to Wm born'd Novemr 28 1713
'Grandsons to John Henderson Gent Fifshyre Scotland.
W" Henderson Dyed Aug* 1 1757 Aet 91
Born'd Apr* 30 1676
Marg* Henderson Dyed December 15 17S9 Born'd March 1 1680/1 Aet 79
Jean Henderson Stuart Dyed in Child Bedd March 1730 Aet 19
John Henderson Dyed May 1 1766 Aet 60
Sam' Henderson Dyed Jan'^ 19 1782
This Record Set doun from the Memory of Jas Henderson now Aet 75"

-Taken from this WikiTree profile for Capt. William managed by yourself and Jim Sneed: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Henderson-338

#3- There are 43 other sources for this William in Family Search. So far none of them mention him, nor his sons, being an Ulster Scot.
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/sources/LBVC-SXM

I'm in the process of updating my tree, and running into a lot of wrong information out there lately.

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