Joan de Stuteville, heiress of Cottingham - Oh those de Stutevilles

Here is info on Nicholas IV.
Nicholas IV de Stuteville of Brincklow, lord of Stuteville, Bedingham and Kimberley

It is the most confusing profile "abouts" on all four of them. Repeats Joan's Medlands info in most of them like they know it is a mess.

Re: your message “…most of them like they know it is a mess.”

It MUST be legit, then; because I know my ‘family’ is a mess. LOL

I sent a message to the Managers (about 45!!! of them) for Joan...I haven't received any responses so far.

I should ‘think’ Medlands would be more authentic.

In the Red corner, CT Clay, who is usually reliable

https://books.google.com/books?id=TbHFxV8bXuMC&pg=PP5

2 Nicholases.

In the Blue corner, Medlands

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/enguntps.htm#JoaneStutevillediedbe...

4 Nicholases.

The issue is not the parentage of Joan, but the parentage of her grandfather Nicholas, ie whether he's Nicholas I, or whether there are two more Nicholases above him.

Geni has added two more generations below, basically by cloning I and II as III and IV. But if two more generations are needed, they should have gone in above, renumbering I and II as III and IV.

Forgot to mention that Clay's I and II are Cawley's III and IV. The numbers weren't stamped on foreheads.

Marvin Loyd Welborn, Joan is listed as my 22nd great grandmother, but I suspect that is too short a thread. My lines are a "hot mess" too. I just follow the individuals and hope we get them sorted out. Glad someone catches these things. I'm bogged down in the some of the American lines. I wish there was a "Medlands" for that. LOL.

Susanne Floyd - on and off the grid, Joan’s listed (on Geni) as my 21st great grandmother — I guess I’m probably a generation older than you.

I see that you are my 14th cousin once removed, again on Geni. Looks like our connection is back in the 16th century with the Overtons, two sisters, in England. Must be autosomal DNA….or….through Isabella Floyd Lee who married Joseph C Lee who is my second cousin 6 times removed.

Yep, I think my line is pretty straight on that Overton thread. The Lee connection is all by marriage, I believe, but an interesting connection.

I’m still not complete working through the de Stuteville line in England. One of the issues we always have is if there is more than one source and they are different, which is correct?

This entire project has been approached by using a single set of resources, I’ve pasted my Bibliography is most of the profiles, so it is not surprising that there may be differences between what I’ve shown and Mr Cawleys fmgMedlands project, which by the way is a work in progress and constantly changing.

The best sourcing I believe for the Stouteville of England is the Yorkshire Charters vol 9 of which I own a copy. My current effort is going through, reading it, and adding to the overview that information that identifies the profile and supports its connections.

One of the issues with this family in the past has been an attempt to simplify them by using a genealogical identifier such as Nicholas II and Nicholas IV. It must be understood that this doesn’t work with this family. The English and French lines were parallel and with the commonly reused names, Robert and Nicholas primarily, it occurs that there were Roberts in the same generation in both lines. This is further complicated by the fact that the same happened in English branch’s, each may have had a Robert and a Nicholas. And with each new branch the numbering starts anew!, so a consecutive numbering is not possible.

So it’s not wise in my opinion here to use II or IV as a decider, and please don’t make changes to what is there to try to simplify an understanding, this is an immensely complicated family. One is much better off to identify by dates or connections an do as Mr Cawley does with many of the numbers [that is put them in square brackets]

I have used those identifiers only where there has been common agreement amongst the sources. There is some consistency in the French line, it falls PRt after Robert III de Stuteville in England, a liberty I decided to take by making the French branch d’Estouteville and the English branch de Stuteville (despite Robert III having been born in France).

"The best sourcing I believe for the Stouteville of England is the Yorkshire Charters vol 9"

I agree. And you may find the family occasionally mentioned in many other volumes of the series as well, including vol. 1. (A fun way to learn some Latin.)

https://archive.org/details/earlyyorkshirech01farruoft/page/386/mod...

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/000194996

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt/search?q1=stuteville;id=mdp.390...

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015012906635&view=...

JOURNAL ARTICLE Two Dervorguillas by C. T. Clay

https://www.jstor.org/stable/556550?seq=1

Private User Having nothing to compare it with I don't know how complete it is, but there is this online version from University of Toronto:

https://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/cartularies/0057

Having looked at the Nicholas records cited by Cawley, I don't see anything that forces him to spread them out over 4 generations of Nicholases.

There's an item from 1219 where Nicholas jr has a dispute with monks about a grant made by his father Nicholas sr and his wife Ida.

If it actually said that Ida was Nicholas jr's mother, we'd have a problem. But it doesn't, although that's how Cawley shows it.

Actually it seems a bit unlikely that Nicholas jr would try to dislodge a gift made by his own parents. More likely he's complaining about the wicked gold-digging stepmother, getting her claws into his aging father and throwing his money around.

Thank you Debra,
Starting at the bottom of your note...
...The deeds reference at Toronto appear to be taken from the book, although the most recent edition which I have does not use the numbering system from the data set that this link refers to
...JSTOR I’ve always tried to find ways to see the articles, unfortunately I no longer have university credentials that would allow me access

Hathitrust and archive.org are too often overlooked because they actually require reading (sorry, my cynicism), but thanks to Google translate that’s how I stumble through the French references I use.

I have on my list before I complete the Stuteville project to browse through a book on archive.org dedicated to the history of Skipwith, a family that descended in England from Patrick, son of Robert II d’Estouteville, brother of Robert III de Stuteville, as I’m sure you are aware.

Thank you for your continuing observations... your research contributes greatly.

If you ever want another “research assignment” just let me know, I come across things that pique my curiosity frequently.

David, I enjoy the reading and look forward to more 'assignments', anytime. If I ever find anything I believe could be of real use to you, I wouldn't hesitate to pass it along to you. Recently through similar research, I ran across the Stuteville name so often it made me realize how great a role they and their contemporaries had in the shaping of Anglo-Normand England. I am very interested in all aspects of early and ancient English history, and have been preparing to delve further into it. Genealogy is a great way to enrich the learning process. If only I'd had such access years ago, to textbooks that have since been made available online. It has really opened up my world.

Just a note to all, about JSTOR: I gather they present articles of which many are free (by logging in with Google), some are available for purchase, some by subscription, and some are available only to academics or scholars with official access. I can only access free articles through Google, and I apologize for forgetting/overlooking that the article I referenced above is only available to read through subscription. A quick check did not find this specific article, although there is this (the English Historical Review, volumes 1-39 available to full view), which for me at least is encouraging:

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/000680024

thanks to all for the source materials (I'll be busy for a while) LOL

I’ve downloaded a lot of Yorkshire material from Archive.org — tons.