Eleanor de Dreux - Parents and Other Connections

Thx Debbie -- been wanting to ask that.
Just looked at more than 20 similar 25th or 36th grt granparent's profile and none of them had any source.
d.o.b. and other info there without any proof or even suggested possible source of data.
Even curated MP profiles with no substantiating source.

I 'may' have found one:

http://www.thepeerage.com/p19833.htm#i198329

Eleanor de Dreux is the daughter of Robert II, Comte de Dreux and Yolande de Coucy.2,3 She married Robert de St. Clair.1
Child of Eleanor de Dreux and Robert de St. Clair

Sir William Sinclair of Roslin+2

Citations

[S37] BP2003 volume 1, page 642. See link for full details for this source. Hereinafter cited as. [S37]
[S37] BP2003. [S37]
[S6690] Capetian-Dreux, "re: Capetian-Dreux Family," e-mail message to Darryl Roger LUNDY (101053), 4 June 2013. Hereinafter cited as "re: Capetian-Dreux Family.

It lists Burke's as a source for the connection.

And there are plenty of notes in the profile of her son William Sinclair, among them:

THE SCOTS PEERAGE says in relevant part: Sir William Sinclair, according to Father Hay, was the son of Robert de Saintclair in Normandy, and his wife Eleanor, relict of Hugh, Lord of Chateauneuf, daughter to Robert, second Comte de Dreux, in France by Joland of Coucy, his wife.

So, I'm convinced. Interesting that whoever researched the Wikipedia page for the children of her parents didn't discover any of this and include her.

see ? Not that difficult to find a source.
Add source to her profile ( my 24 th grt grandmother)

I did.

Btw, my 20 ggm, so nice to meet you cousin. :)

Nice to meet you to -- why Magnolia Grandifloria ?

The Magnolia is very significant for me. I grew up in Mississippi and that's the state flower. Also the Choctaw version of 'magnolia' is the name given to me in a Native American naming ceremony.

The men on both sides of my family were Freemasons - Gambrell and Morgan surnames. My dad was 32nd degree Scottish Rite, if I have that correct.

Scots Peerage

https://archive.org/stream/scotspeeragefoun06paul#page/564/

Father Hay

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044017940347&view=...

As noted, he doesn't appear to say what Balfour Paul says he says.

She's in French Wikipedia

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_II_de_Dreux

which cites MedLands

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/pardreman.htm#EleonoreDreuxdied1248

which cites primary sources for Eleanor's parentage and marriages.

But neither has anything on Sir William being her son.

Go guys. Yell if you need Curator tools to help!

Phillipp - regarding unsourced MPS -sometimes these are because in the old days we didn't have relationship lock, so the way to prevent an erroneous duplicate being merged into the correct MP was to MP it as well.

My apologies to Balfour Paul. Father Hay starts by giving the official family story, as per the "History of the Saintclairs" Then he adds his own commentary at the end. Eleanor is on page 34 - he discovered her in France.

But he says nothing about William being her son.

Forgot the link

https://hdl.handle.net/2027/hvd.32044017940347?urlappend=%3Bseq=70

William is listed here with sources:

http://www.thepeerage.com/p19833.htm#i198329

Eleanor de Dreux is the daughter of Robert II, Comte de Dreux and Yolande de Coucy.2,3 She married Robert de St. Clair.1
Child of Eleanor de Dreux and Robert de St. Clair

Sir William Sinclair of Roslin+2

--- see umpteen books / bestsellers written with conflicting information who are parents of whom on profile of William Sinclair.
With more access to more correct information maybe time to get rid of the " makes it exciting and a bestseller " and " the author was famous " information/ data all over GENI

The American Wikipedia article isn't very good. Eleanor is well-established.

We know nothing about her second husband Robert de St Clair except his name.

There seems to be nothing from France about their children, if any.

There's nothing to say they ever crossed the Channel.

For the statement that Sir William was their son, we only have Scots Peerage. Everybody else gets it from there.

Suspicious minds can work overtime here. But Scots Peerage is very citable.

Scots Peerage maybe still a very good reliable source .

Günther Kipp

cf https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/pardreman.htm#RobertIIDreuxdied1218B

She's their second child according to Cawley:
2. ELEONORE de Dreux ([1186]-[May 1255/Mar 1258]). The Chronicle of Alberic de Trois-Fontaines refers to one of the seven daughters (mentioned first in the list) of "comiti de Brana Roberto" and his wife Yolande as the mother of a daughter who had "filius Gervasii ex sorore Herveii Nivernensis comitis", adding that "pater Gervasii vocatus fuit Hugo"[82]. Merlet records that she is first named in a charter dated Jul 1206 under which her husband confirmed rights to the inhabitants of the parish of Saint-Maixme[83]. "Dominus Hugo de Castellonovo" confirmed donations to Saint-Vincent-au-Bois made by "dominus Gervasius pater meus", with the consent of "dominæ Alienoris uxoris meæ", by charter dated 1212[84]. "Robertus comes Drocensis" confirmed that King Louis IX had granted him "domum de Sorello", at the request of "sororis meæ dominæ de Castello", to hold until “nepos meus filius Hugonis de Castello ad legitimam venerit ætatem”, by charter dated 1230[85]. Merlet dates her second marriage to 1234, noting that “Saint-Clair ou Gometz-le-Château” was located “canton de Limours, arrondissement de Rambouillet”, recording a charter dated 1235, granting rights in the woods of the monastery to Saint-Vincent, in which her second husband is named “Robertus de Sancto-Claro Castrinovi dominus”[86]. "Robertus de Sancto Claro miles et Alienor…eius uxor et Ioannes miles de Castronovo dominus dictæ Alienoris filius primogenitus" granted property to "Garino dicto martin et Mariæ eius uxori" by charter dated Apr 1248[87]. The abbey of Saint-Vincent ceded “deux pêcheries dans l’étang de Blévy, qu’elle tenait du don de Hugues II [de Châteauneuf] et de Mabile sa mère” to “Robert de Saint-Clair seigneur de Châteauneuf et à Elyénor sa femme” by charter dated May 1255[88]. Robert de Saint-Clair donated revenue to Saint-Vincent, for the souls of “Aliénor dame de Châteauneuf sa femme, et Jean, son fils aîné” (presumably referring to his wife’s son) by charter dated Mar 1258[89]. m firstly (before Jul 1206) HUGUES [IV] Seigneur de Châteauneuf, son of GERVAIS [II] Seigneur de Châteauneuf-en-Thimerais & his wife Marguerite de Donzy (-[May/Dec] 1230). m secondly (1234) as his first wife, ROBERT de Saint-Clair, son of --- (-1269).

cf her husbands: Hugues IV, de Châteauneuf de Beaussart de Thimerais, and Robert de St. Clair

But Cawley thinks this son of hers - William Sir William Sinclair of Roslin, 6th Lord of Rosslyn is actually called Roberthttps://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/pardreman.htm #RobertSaintClairdied1269

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/pardreman.htm#RobertSaintClairdied...

André du Chesne, Histoire de la maison de Dreux, pages 56/60, Paris 1631
Maybe the book can be found on line

I just looked for the book on the net and found it in"google books"

Histoire généalogique de la maison de Dreux de Bar le Duc, de Luxembourg et de Limbourg, Du Plessis de Richelieu, de Broyes et de Chasteauvillain
André Du Chesne
Unfortunately, I haven't got a computor at the moment and it's impossible to read on my mobile.

THX Jf Antoine